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  Reply # 1858538 4-Sep-2017 22:28
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

I see China as the positive in all this and the US and North Korea as the reckless nitwits. 

 

 

I can't see any positives in it at all.

 

 

The term positive was probably wrong, more accurately China is the rational influence

 

 

They are getting the NK treatment as well, which makes KJU bizarre. China want NK there just to keep the US away from the border, yet NK are pushing China, they must feel that they can push and push and China will fold and do nothing. The nuclear test was an insult, second time it coincided with an important event for the Chinese govt. If that continues, I can see a "Hi, USA here, regime change, then we move out, whaddya reckon??" Given the peace that will ensue, lack of tension, and its probably that many citizens will be ok, (Im assuming they are scared not brainwashed) its not a silly idea. 


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  Reply # 1858545 4-Sep-2017 22:36
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gzt: 

Security for everyone. Life goes on. North Korea is in fact acting rationally In this regard and that is the kind of stability they are ultimately seeking with these actions.

 

So you feel once they get accepted as a nuclear armed country, life up there will be a bunch of roses? They will be recognised. You feel they can then be trusted? Another aim according to Christiane Amanpour is improving the economy. How will that happen? Sure, the sanctions can all be removed. There would be no need nor desire to give any rewards, as they arent giving anyone anything. And based on past lack of trust, I assume the US will hang around the region for a while yet.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1858560 4-Sep-2017 23:11
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tdgeek:

 

gzt: 

Security for everyone. Life goes on. North Korea is in fact acting rationally In this regard and that is the kind of stability they are ultimately seeking with these actions.

 

So you feel once they get accepted as a nuclear armed country, life up there will be a bunch of roses? They will be recognised. You feel they can then be trusted? Another aim according to Christiane Amanpour is improving the economy. How will that happen? Sure, the sanctions can all be removed. There would be no need nor desire to give any rewards, as they arent giving anyone anything. And based on past lack of trust, I assume the US will hang around the region for a while yet.

 

 

They will use it and threaten to use it.

 

They already have threatened.

 

They are doing what they are saying.


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  Reply # 1858588 4-Sep-2017 23:51
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Pumpedd:

 

tdgeek:

 

gzt: 

Security for everyone. Life goes on. North Korea is in fact acting rationally In this regard and that is the kind of stability they are ultimately seeking with these actions.

 

So you feel once they get accepted as a nuclear armed country, life up there will be a bunch of roses? They will be recognised. You feel they can then be trusted? Another aim according to Christiane Amanpour is improving the economy. How will that happen? Sure, the sanctions can all be removed. There would be no need nor desire to give any rewards, as they arent giving anyone anything. And based on past lack of trust, I assume the US will hang around the region for a while yet.

 

 

They will use it and threaten to use it.

 

They already have threatened.

 

They are doing what they are saying.

 

 

I concur. If it was a leader who was pressing to get his country on the international field, pressuring and so on, but he is evil. Once he is important, he will want to be more important.  


gzt

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  Reply # 1858614 5-Sep-2017 06:17
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Wiggum:

gzt:
Cuba was in a similar situation and wanted Soviet weapons installed as a deterrent to any further US moves to invade Cuba. Irrational threats were made yes, but the resulting deals benefited all parties and largely stabilised the situation with very little further hostility occuring.

There were no further American sponsored attempts to invade Cuba, the Soviet Union did not install the missiles, USA agreed to remove some missiles from somewhere else as quid pro quo. In the American public eye of course, great victory for great country of America, in reality it was a win for all sides.


The cubans themselves were the ones that got the worst deal. They were the ones trying to escape Cuba in risky rafts etc to Florida. Cubans who reached Florida were permitted to remain in the US.


The cuban crisis reminds me a bit of communist Germany. Everybody was locked inside and not allowed to leave. There may have been some stability without war, but there certainly was not peace. Especially inside Cuba. Many Cubans would have seen a US invasion as a good thing and as liberty. It never happened, was that really a good thing? It has its similarities with NK I suppose.


Agree. The Cuban people probably would have done very well after the revolution if they had been allowed to trade with the USA.

Apparently Castro was not initially a communist more of a national democrat and believed that after overthrowing the US backed corrupt dictator, the USA would then welcome the new government.

That was not the case. The USA refused to establish diplomatic relations. The USA then made trade and travel illegal also. Cuba then sought assistance from the Soviet Union.

Edit: Checked up. Incorrect on the break in relations. For example Time Magazine puts the break in diplomatic relations at the time of Cuban nationalisation of many American owned assets.

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  Reply # 1858621 5-Sep-2017 07:23
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Wiggum:

 

gzt:
Cuba was in a similar situation and wanted Soviet weapons installed as a deterrent to any further US moves to invade Cuba. Irrational threats were made yes, but the resulting deals benefited all parties and largely stabilised the situation with very little further hostility occuring.

There were no further American sponsored attempts to invade Cuba, the Soviet Union did not install the missiles, USA agreed to remove some missiles from somewhere else as quid pro quo. In the American public eye of course, great victory for great country of America, in reality it was a win for all sides.

 

The cubans themselves were the ones that got the worst deal. They were the ones trying to escape Cuba in risky rafts etc to Florida. Cubans who reached Florida were permitted to remain in the US.

 

The cuban crisis reminds me a bit of communist Germany. Everybody was locked inside and not allowed to leave. There may have been some stability without war, but there certainly was not peace. Especially inside Cuba. Many Cubans would have seen a US invasion as a good thing and as liberty. It never happened, was that really a good thing? It has its similarities with NK I suppose.

 

 

 

 

Some Cubans - for sure.

 

Cubans who were victims of the corrupt US-backed dictator Batista might have seen things differently.

 

The similarity is that US foreign policy has been, and remains, an abject disaster. 


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  Reply # 1858634 5-Sep-2017 08:00
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The US can undoubtedly win wars but it just cannot win the peace. History is strewn with its failures. The problems currently being experienced with North Korea have their origins in the US failed attempts to win the peace in the 40s and 50s.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1858637 5-Sep-2017 08:05
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China doesnt seem to be assisting at all here....do they want a war as well? or maybe is China resigned to war?


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  Reply # 1858638 5-Sep-2017 08:08
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I would say the reason it is not a hot war yet is the background actions of China.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1858639 5-Sep-2017 08:12
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MikeB4: The US can undoubtedly win wars but it just cannot win the peace. History is strewn with its failures. The problems currently being experienced with North Korea have their origins in the US failed attempts to win the peace in the 40s and 50s.

 

Didnt NK invade SK in its own accord back then?

 

 


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  Reply # 1858640 5-Sep-2017 08:15
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MikeB4: I would say the reason it is not a hot war yet is the background actions of China.

 

They are a bit stuck. They want the regime kept, but a war would probably remove the regime, unless it started and finished as spats of fire, i.e. shows of force without becoming full on? Ideally, China wants denuclearised with peace, regime intact. Nk seems to be making that far more difficult than it could have been  


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  Reply # 1858643 5-Sep-2017 08:17
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tdgeek:

MikeB4: The US can undoubtedly win wars but it just cannot win the peace. History is strewn with its failures. The problems currently being experienced with North Korea have their origins in the US failed attempts to win the peace in the 40s and 50s.


Didnt NK invade SK in its own accord back then?


 



Read about the partition, the reasons for it, namely the US fear of Communism. The installation of Syngman Rhee South Koreas Kim Jong Un




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1858652 5-Sep-2017 08:48
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MikeB4:
tdgeek:

 

MikeB4: The US can undoubtedly win wars but it just cannot win the peace. History is strewn with its failures. The problems currently being experienced with North Korea have their origins in the US failed attempts to win the peace in the 40s and 50s.

 

 

 

Didnt NK invade SK in its own accord back then?

 

 

 

 

 



Read about the partition, the reasons for it, namely the US fear of Communism. The installation of Syngman Rhee South Koreas Kim Jong Un

 

Very interesting, thanks for that. I do see that while he was installed by the US, his desire to be the leader was his own, and the US rebuffed him in those quests.

 

In fact he didnt sign the armistice. So that tells me that yes, US hated communism, and that Rhee was the KJU of that period, but China, NK and the US signed the Armistice, so that doesnt quite have the feel of avoiding peace by the US?

 

Fast forward to today, SK is a lot like Germany, it was in a bad place in the early part of last century, two world wars, now its a normal stable, respected nation. SK has moved on, new generations, its a normal, stable respected nation. IMO they then deserve the right to peace, and not being threatened and attacked at the DMZ by NK? People like KJU were not uncommon back then, but the world has moved on, KJU and his desires belong to the past.


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  Reply # 1858791 5-Sep-2017 11:15
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Wiggum:

MikeB4:


Wiggum


gzt I agree I may be advocating war talk here. But under what sort of conditions is war ever acceptable?


Unfortunately I have no solution and I can only just offer an opinion like everybody else.


My point is that none of us know how anything is going to play out. Its guesswor


Careful with this style of address. On a subsequent quote it can easily make it look like someone said something they did not. Best to avoid that. (@Wiggum)

gzt

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  Reply # 1858793 5-Sep-2017 11:18
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tdgeek:

gzt: 

Security for everyone. Life goes on. North Korea is in fact acting rationally In this regard and that is the kind of stability they are ultimately seeking with these actions.


So you feel once they get accepted as a nuclear armed country, life up there will be a bunch of roses? They will be recognised. You feel they can then be trusted? Another aim according to Christiane Amanpour is improving the economy. How will that happen? Sure, the sanctions can all be removed. There would be no need nor desire to give any rewards, as they arent giving anyone anything. And based on past lack of trust, I assume the US will hang around the region for a while yet.


On the other side North Korea has a similar problem from their point of view.

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