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156 posts

Master Geek
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Topic # 222974 6-Sep-2017 11:20
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Thoughts on this after many economic advisers are challenging him say he got it wrong on Labours financial plan.

 

This is the man who hired a taxi in Aussie for a day and says it was justified $1200.00 

 

He is possibly going to be the next National party leader if National lose the election He and Paula Bennett WOW


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  Reply # 1859561 6-Sep-2017 11:37
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He has a Zoology degree so he could make a dogs breakfast of it tongue-out

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Joyce





Mike
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  Reply # 1859565 6-Sep-2017 11:42
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Here is a link to his actual results.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1859571 6-Sep-2017 11:49
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Rikkitic:

 

Here is a link to his actual results.

 

 

Labour Economics, that's ironic and funny. If he passed that one, he may have understood Labour's Economics too


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  Reply # 1859577 6-Sep-2017 12:01
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MikeB4:

 

He has a Zoology degree so he could make a dogs breakfast of it tongue-out

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Joyce

 

 

This is the part of your source that I like: 

 

Joyce's parents worked as grocers. He went to school at Francis Douglas Memorial College, before enrolling at Massey University, applying to study veterinary science. However he "missed the cut", graduating instead with a BSc in zoology. While at university he worked as a presenter and programme director on student radio. He also took eleven economics papers at Massey from 1984 to 1986 and failed eight of these through insufficient grade, withdrawal, or failure to complete.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1859725 6-Sep-2017 14:16
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeB4:

 

He has a Zoology degree so he could make a dogs breakfast of it tongue-out

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Joyce

 

 

This is the part of your source that I like: 

 

Joyce's parents worked as grocers. He went to school at Francis Douglas Memorial College, before enrolling at Massey University, applying to study veterinary science. However he "missed the cut", graduating instead with a BSc in zoology. While at university he worked as a presenter and programme director on student radio. He also took eleven economics papers at Massey from 1984 to 1986 and failed eight of these through insufficient grade, withdrawal, or failure to complete.

 

 

 

 

It seems that wikipage vandalism becomes the new national sport on the leadup to elections. If you look at the page history you can see history of the changes.

 

I recall similar dodgy edits on Metiria Turei's page just as the news about her fraud broke. Some of the info was quiet funny, but over time it got corrected. I would not trust anything on Wikipedia about NZ politicians right now.


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  Reply # 1859733 6-Sep-2017 14:29
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Irony, its ironic


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  Reply # 1859737 6-Sep-2017 14:32
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I have never like Steven Joyce, he should not be this high up the pecking order and should not be Finance Minister. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1859763 6-Sep-2017 15:18
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MikeB4:

 

I have never like Steven Joyce, he should not be this high up the pecking order and should not be Finance Minister. 

 

 

He was better suited as Transport Minister


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  Reply # 1859773 6-Sep-2017 15:42
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Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 

I have never like Steven Joyce, he should not be this high up the pecking order and should not be Finance Minister. 

 

 

He was better suited as Transport Minister

 

 

 

 

You maybe right with that and Bill English better suited for Finance and not PM





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 




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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1859776 6-Sep-2017 15:43
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Do some research (Google Waterview Tunnel) you will see that the Labour party proposal for the tunnel was disregarded and they were going to go straight through the suburbs

 

here's the link http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2403435/Billion-dollar-Auckland-tunnel-canned

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1859812 6-Sep-2017 16:48
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gulfa:

 

Do some research (Google Waterview Tunnel) you will see that the Labour party proposal for the tunnel was disregarded and they were going to go straight through the suburbs

 

here's the link http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2403435/Billion-dollar-Auckland-tunnel-canned

 

 

 

 

I am surprised and dissapointed Helen Clark got involved as her record on infrastructure was dismal..in fact she did nothing..she even cancelled all Wellington improvements.

 

 

 

It seems Joyce isnt all wrong as Labour are hiding some true costs especially for some key government departments. Joyce has proven not to be a fool. May look like one..but isnt one :P


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  Reply # 1860138 7-Sep-2017 09:21
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Pumpedd:

 

 

 

It seems Joyce isnt all wrong as Labour are hiding some true costs especially for some key government departments. Joyce has proven not to be a fool. May look like one..but isnt one :P

 

 

Huh?! That the man double-downed not simply on the general point that Labour's figures were supposedly dodgy but also on the actual dollar amount - despite numerous well-regarded (and some very much establishment/conservative economists) saying this was at least a significant overestimate - suggests he's a pig-headed fool who can't admit when he gets something wrong.

 

If he'd been less intemperate with his approach it may have been more effective. As it is, so much of the response has been on what he got 'wrong', which of course has led to the wider conversation as to whether he's a suitable person to hold the finance portfolio.

 

That said, he may well be of the mind that it's the initial claims that voters will have heard and will remember, and sadly he may be right...

 

Edit - Audrey Young's column in the NZH today is saying pretty much the same as I say above:

 

 

As National's campaign chairman for the past five elections, you'd think Steven Joyce would have been more careful in his political hit job.

 

By attacking Labour's fiscal plan in the way he has, by implying they had got their figures wrong, he has done damage to himself and to National's campaign.

 

He over-egged it by talking about an $11 billion fiscal hole.

 

That implied either an incompetent error or presenting deliberately misleading figures and it is no surprise that no one has agreed with him.

 

If he had been more temperate in his language and dealt with conservative scenarios instead of worst-case scenarios, he may have been taken more seriously.

 

The truth is usually more convincing than hyped up scare-stories. It was all timed for Prime Minister Bill English to make an impact on the second televised leaders' debate, just at the time when Jacinda Ardern could have been pressed harder on the blank cheque tax policy Labour is taking to the election.

 

Instead of politically exploiting the prospect of land tax, which Ardern did not rule out yesterday, Joyce has been back on the fiscals, having to defend his own reputation.

 

In the process, Labour has come up smelling like roses when parts of its plan deserve greater scrutiny.

 

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11917685


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  Reply # 1860152 7-Sep-2017 09:33
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jonathan18:

 

Pumpedd:

 

 

 

It seems Joyce isnt all wrong as Labour are hiding some true costs especially for some key government departments. Joyce has proven not to be a fool. May look like one..but isnt one :P

 

 

Huh?! That the man double-downed not simply on the general point that Labour's figures were supposedly dodgy but also on the actual dollar amount - despite numerous well-regarded (and some very much establishment/conservative economists) saying this was at least a significant overestimate - suggests he's a pig-headed fool who can't admit when he gets something wrong.

 

If he'd been less intemperate with his approach it may have been more effective. As it is, so much of the response has been on what he got 'wrong', which of course has led to the wider conversation as to whether he's a suitable person to hold the finance portfolio.

 

That said, he may well be of the mind that it's the initial claims that voters will have heard and will remember, and sadly he may be right...

 

 

Yes, mud sticks. Its inconceivable that a party could make an 11b hole, forgetting about future costs of planned policies. Also inconceivable that a party would think that was the case, check and recheck. and conclude that was the case. Tactics I would say to stretch the economic credibility gap between the two leaders.


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  Reply # 1860193 7-Sep-2017 10:43
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And a very similar line from Vernon Small from Fairfax, who notes Joyce has a record of making similar claims during previous election campaigns:

 

 

July 2011: Steven Joyce attacks Labour's fiscal plan, saying it would leave a huge hole over the next 15 years and add $18.4 billion to debt.

 

August 2014: Steven Joyce claims reckless Labour spending of almost $18b.

 

Let's just say that even before this week National campaign manager and finance spokesman Steven Joyce has form.

 

By comparison with his attempts in 2011 and 2014 the "hole" he claimed to have found in Labour's 2017 plan – $11.7b – was relatively small.

 

His motivation is as clear as crystal: feed the view Labour is incompetent and that National is the only trusted steward of the nation's books.

 

Now, if, once Labour's accounting practice had become clear, he had dropped that and hammered his other line – that Labour had left itself an incredibly small amount of remaining new spending to navigate the rest of its term – he might have had the financial world nodding in agreement.

 

Several economists have indeed made that point.

 

If he had said that given Labour's form, and its need to leave cash aside for potential coalition partners, he did not think they had a hope in hell of achieving that, then that would be a fair political debate.

 

But by sticking to his $11.7b number, including his provision for debt-servicing costs on imaginary extra debt, he went beyond over-egging his claim. He clearly believes that the "mud sticks" approach is better than the alternative – "partial backdown in the face of the evidence".

 

Others may have other words for it.

 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96554818/theres-no-fiscal-black-hole-just-an-incredibly-tight-squeeze-can-we-move-on-now

 

 


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  Reply # 1860202 7-Sep-2017 10:52
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Its also very conceivable that National may need to cater for coalition demands, if Peters still holds the last card.

 

What has been a very interesting time is now getting a little grubby. . I feel Nats have a clear edge, the JA effect will diminish after its early ride, this could bite National, if Labs play the dirty tactics card. Lots more to unfold


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