Why I wont vote National

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#1871178 22-Sep-2017 18:59

networkn:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

MikeB4: I voted National but i believe there should be tax cuts now. When there is the level of homelessness, poverty, insufficent food and access to health that NZ currently has the money should be dirrected there.

Everyone professes support for Labour policies but votes National!

???????

I look at all issues, all policies and possible outcomes and risks. I also look at the various teams. While I agree with many of labours policies I felt that National provided a better overall package. As for teams when I compare National and Labour National came out on top

with Labour after Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson the team is not good, very light on talent and experience in my estimations.

And then on the other side, there are idiots like Nick Smith, incompetent buffoons like Brownlee, smug and spiteful individuals like Paula Bennett, Jonathan Coleman.

Kelvin Davis, is that you?

Good Grief!

No - I don't like Labour much - but I especially do not like the fallacious argument made by their opponents that their lack of experience is a huge obstacle to governing - especially when National has some ministers and MPs who might be "very experienced" - but are nasty/useless or both.

If you only want "experienced" MPs, then in the end you'll be left with dotards trying to get to their seats using zimmer frames, having cranky fits when Bellamy's put (or didn't put) salt in the porridge, then through natural attrition, there'll be none left in parliament at all, just a whiff of disinfectant and the odd pair of slippers under the seats.

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tdgeek

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#1871183 22-Sep-2017 19:34

Fred99:

networkn:

Fred99:

I just can't imagine how humiliating and destructive to self-esteem it must be to have to go cap in hand to a government bureaucrat - who has the discretionary power to decide whether you're worthy.

We have got this whole "welfare" thing wrong in so many ways.

Yeah, I agree about humiliation. We were talking about this over lunch today.

I do wonder however, what your alternative suggestion is?

Welfare is supposed to be a short-term thing for the VAST majority of people.

I think we either need to go down the route of a UBI, but probably also need to create jobs for those who'll probably never be "competitively productive" - but don't necessarily deserve to be condemned to awful lives.

Not jobs "planting trees and picking up rubbish" - but real jobs for real pay providing a sense of purpose - and hope.

I don't think the free-enterprise system is going to be able to provide this - we passed the point of no return in our race to the bottom when we outsourced basically all manufacturing to the lowest wage cost providers. Next it's robots.

Ive wondered about this

Ive seem US prisoners in orange digging gardens = good. Id like a Govt business where its a real job, real pay, doing real work. It could be inter related to local councils. If anyone is on a benefit we need to improve testing of that. Are you real? Genuine? If so, give. If not , FO. Harsh on the undeserved, give to the deserved. I dont advocate cadre to the grave, Copyright Michael Joseph Savage, but the issue is need vs bleed. As much as I want to support need, I want to screw bleed.

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#1871188 22-Sep-2017 20:04

App alert, National wont rule out a call to the Greens

So, its not about policy its about power, and I say that to all parties who cross their line in order to win

National-Labour coalition anyone???

MikeB4

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#1871189 22-Sep-2017 20:05

MSD does not use discretion for entitlement to a primary benefit. Qualification is precisely prescribed by the Social Security Act.

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#1871191 22-Sep-2017 20:09

tdgeek:

Ive wondered about this

Ive seem US prisoners in orange digging gardens = good. Id like a Govt business where its a real job, real pay, doing real work. It could be inter related to local councils. If anyone is on a benefit we need to improve testing of that. Are you real? Genuine? If so, give. If not , FO. Harsh on the undeserved, give to the deserved. I dont advocate cadre to the grave, Copyright Michael Joseph Savage, but the issue is need vs bleed. As much as I want to support need, I want to screw bleed.

MSD staff do not come down in the last shower, also MSD has developed systems to establish entitlement and to check continuing entitlement.

tdgeek

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#1871194 22-Sep-2017 20:11

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

Ive wondered about this

Ive seem US prisoners in orange digging gardens = good. Id like a Govt business where its a real job, real pay, doing real work. It could be inter related to local councils. If anyone is on a benefit we need to improve testing of that. Are you real? Genuine? If so, give. If not , FO. Harsh on the undeserved, give to the deserved. I dont advocate cadre to the grave, Copyright Michael Joseph Savage, but the issue is need vs bleed. As much as I want to support need, I want to screw bleed.

MSD staff do not come down in the last shower, also MSD has developed systems to establish entitlement and to check continuing entitlement.

Tks Mike. I didn't mean to be negative, and not that familiar with their processes, but good to hear

Fred99

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#1871206 22-Sep-2017 20:39

tdgeek:

Ive seem US prisoners in orange digging gardens = good.

5 year recidivism rate of ~75% and highest prison incarceration rate globally suggests that not only is the US state prison system something to not use as an example, but it's a utterly horrific, abject disaster.

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#1871265 22-Sep-2017 22:54

Fred99:

networkn:

Fred99:

Perhaps the first thing I'd do - if elected to PM and chief dictator, would be to abolish the HSC's role in setting parliamentary salaries, and tie all MP's salaries to (multiples of) the median income for all people (ie not just the median wage of $48k or whatever it is, but the median income for all people or working age, working or not, on welfare or not. I believe that isn't much more than about $25k.

Right, and how many people would you then expect to turn up for work on Monday morning? You'd be running the country by yourself, on let's be generous and say you can have 2 x as much.

I do agree that MP Salaries seem very high though.

I said "multiples of".

Whatever amount that happens to be as starting point - incentivise politicians financially to improve the lot - financially - of the "median" person - ordinary New Zealanders.

Isn't it the job of these people who want their lot improved to actually make the effort to achieve that themselves, rather than just rely on politicians to spend other people's money in an attempt to achieve it?

Rikkitic

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#1871273 22-Sep-2017 23:19

Happy Election Day everyone. It has been an interesting discussion. It will have been an interesting election. I hope we can all be good winners and good losers, whatever the result. Don't forget to vote!

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Aredwood

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#1871274 22-Sep-2017 23:20

tdgeek:

App alert, National wont rule out a call to the Greens

So, its not about policy its about power, and I say that to all parties who cross their line in order to win

National-Labour coalition anyone???

I think that a National / Greens coalition would actually work quite well. The main sticking point will be getting the Greens to drop their far left socialist policies. Pro enviroment policies are about efficient use of resources, so they are broadly compatible with National.

Depending on the results, there is a possible scenario of a labour / NZ First coalition (without the Greens). Meaning the Greens won't be part of the government again (Labour have done that to the Greens before). So a National / Greens coalition might be the only way that the Greens could end up getting into power. So the Greens could be very willing to compromise to do so. And National would benefit by not having to go into coalition with NZ First. Or at the very least it would mean that Winston Peters won't be the kingmaker. So he will have to compromise himself if he doesn't want to spend what could be his last Parliamentary term in opposition.

Edited to add

It would also allow National to go into coalition without needing the Maori party.

networkn

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#1871732 23-Sep-2017 22:47

Fred99:

No - I don't like Labour much - but I especially do not like the fallacious argument made by their opponents that their lack of experience is a huge obstacle to governing - especially when National has some ministers and MPs who might be "very experienced" - but are nasty/useless or both.

If you only want "experienced" MPs, then in the end you'll be left with dotards trying to get to their seats using zimmer frames, having cranky fits when Bellamy's put (or didn't put) salt in the porridge, then through natural attrition, there'll be none left in parliament at all, just a whiff of disinfectant and the odd pair of slippers under the seats.

Well, I'm going to disagree here. Would you send an uncapped AB's captain onto the field with uncapped players and expect them to win an RWC? What should happen, is that new blood should enter parliament start at the bottom and work their way up. Just like in any business, or any normal situation.

Almost none of Labours Caucus have ever held private sector jobs or run businesses. I believe this is how they came up with their employment policies, just NO clue as to what the real world impact would be.

networkn

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#1871733 23-Sep-2017 22:50

tdgeek:

App alert, National wont rule out a call to the Greens

So, its not about policy its about power, and I say that to all parties who cross their line in order to win

National-Labour coalition anyone???

I would like to see National and the Greens work together. I think NZ needs the Greens. Sadly I don't think James Shaw is a competent leader and he will cut off his nose to spite his face. The Greens need to show their followers they can be adults and real team players, in order to get some concessions and policies across the line, a far better result than what happens now, which is they get nothing.

bmt

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#1871747 23-Sep-2017 23:14

networkn:

Almost none of Labours Caucus have ever held private sector jobs or run businesses. I believe this is how they came up with their employment policies, just NO clue as to what the real world impact would be.

Bit of a slippery slope line of argument. The large majority of National MPs are multiple homeowners/grew up with a silver spoon etc etc. and have NO clue as to what the hundreds of thousands living in damp/cold/mouldy housing / poverty etc etc.

But then you have someone like Paula Bennett who was on the benefit and ended up shunting povvos into motels rather than doing anything effective.. so figure that one out hmm...

Rikkitic

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#1871756 23-Sep-2017 23:23

Shaw has offered to work with NZ First. They may not exactly end up with nothing.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

networkn

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#1871860 24-Sep-2017 10:24

Fred99:

networkn:

Fred99:

Perhaps the first thing I'd do - if elected to PM and chief dictator, would be to abolish the HSC's role in setting parliamentary salaries, and tie all MP's salaries to (multiples of) the median income for all people (ie not just the median wage of $48k or whatever it is, but the median income for all people or working age, working or not, on welfare or not. I believe that isn't much more than about $25k.

Right, and how many people would you then expect to turn up for work on Monday morning? You'd be running the country by yourself, on let's be generous and say you can have 2 x as much.

I do agree that MP Salaries seem very high though.

I said "multiples of".

Whatever amount that happens to be as starting point - incentivise politicians financially to improve the lot - financially - of the "median" person - ordinary New Zealanders.

Of course, it would depend on how multiples of, but if there are enough multiples, I don't think you are going to change anything. If you make salaries dependant on financial performance, there would be a sudden massive increase in the minimum wage, which would cause all sorts of economic issues, like a jump in inflation, increase in unemployment due to small businesses having to make do with less staff, or that would just go under completely etc.

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