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  Reply # 1871897 24-Sep-2017 11:36
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

freitasm: Poorly chosen wording about human rights may be an indication of something, don't you think?

 

Indeed - poorly conceived thoughts.

 

The only thing poorly chosen about the words was that they let the cat out of the bag.

 

Not that the opinion (that human rights aren't "rights" at all - therefore don't need to be equal) would be unpopular - quite the reverse probably.  Slippery slope.

 

 

I am concerned about that as it is indicative of a deeper belief which is disturbing.

 

 

It's one of the inevitable results of the central tenets of global populism - that democracy should always reflect the pure and undiluted will of the people.

 

It's why Trump's at war with the US constitution, and refugees are drowning.


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Reply # 1871903 24-Sep-2017 11:58
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The best answer has to be a National - Greens coalition, giving 65 seats in Parliament. This has not been ruled out by James Shaw as explained here:

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11925810

 

"Green Party leader James Shaw is not completely ruling out making an approach to National, but is saying it is highly, highly unlikely.

 

"We campaigned on a platform of change," he told TVNZ's Q+A this morning.

 

The National-led Government had a fundamentally different approach to its key goals on climate change, cleaning up rivers and poverty.

 

However, he added that "literally nothing is off the table", including a confidence and supply agreement with National."

 

A National - Greens coalition would bypass Winston's NZ First, something that would please both the Greens and National. Also, Act's David Seymour has ruled out working with Winston, but I think he would be prepared to be part of a National - Greens coalition.

 

If the Greens could soften some of their policies, such as capital gains taxes, for example, the whole country would benefit from Greens being in Government if they were to focus primarily on climate change. James Shaw has said that the Greens would obviously prefer to be in Government, rather than just part of a confidence and supply agreement. I think the Greens would achieve much more if they were in coalition with National than they would if they went with Labour and NZ First.

 

If you consider a Labour - Greens - NZ First coalition, this would have only 61 seats and I think it would be very hard for these 3 parties to work together, especially with such a wafer thin majority.

 

 


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  Reply # 1871905 24-Sep-2017 12:06
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It seems very odd to me that there is any possibility of NZ being governed by a coalition not involving the party for which the biggest percentage of New Zealanders voted. That would, surely, be fundamentally undemocratic?






gzt

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  Reply # 1871908 24-Sep-2017 12:12
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Geektastic: I dislike this voting system. It seems to permit government by a committee that most voters did not vote for and potentially takes far too long.

Minority governments also occur in FPP.

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  Reply # 1871913 24-Sep-2017 12:18
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Wiggum:

 

So now we left with Wnston (who did not even win his own seat), with only 7% of the party vote, getting to chose the government for NZ. How on earth is that democratic? It stinks to say the least.

 

Not much we can really do, I think the National vote has turned out to be good. I was beginning to loose a lot of faith in NZ. What now? Well I hate to say it, but we need to give Winston whatever he wants and keep Labour/Greens our of Goverment at all costs. It seems MMP has caused us to slide backwards in our democracy.

 

 

MMP is just the perfect voting system. I hate it. FPP is by far better where we democratically elect our own candidate in our own geaographic area.

 

Britain still uses FPP and the only grizzlers are the small minorities. In NZ we let the small minorities rule.


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  Reply # 1871917 24-Sep-2017 12:20
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Geektastic:

 

It seems very odd to me that there is any possibility of NZ being governed by a coalition not involving the party for which the biggest percentage of New Zealanders voted. That would, surely, be fundamentally undemocratic?

 

 

 

 

Not at all.

 

Do not look at party votes in isolation.  

 

Look at the combined percent of the parties who decide they can reach compromises between them and work together - which represents the percentage of the voters that support them to make decisions on their behalf.

 

 

 

 





---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...


gzt

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  Reply # 1871919 24-Sep-2017 12:21
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Geektastic: It seems very odd to me that there is any possibility of NZ being governed by a coalition not involving the party for which the biggest percentage of New Zealanders voted. That would, surely, be fundamentally undemocratic?

Such things can also happen in FPP. Anyway, back to today's world.. Let's say for arguments sake that we get Labour + NZ first + Green. If those parties together outweigh a single party and form a stable government that is clearly a democratic result.

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  Reply # 1871922 24-Sep-2017 12:23
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frednz:

 

The best answer has to be a National - Greens coalition, giving 65 seats in Parliament. This has not been ruled out by James Shaw as explained here:

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11925810

 

"Green Party leader James Shaw is not completely ruling out making an approach to National, but is saying it is highly, highly unlikely.

 

"We campaigned on a platform of change," he told TVNZ's Q+A this morning.

 

The National-led Government had a fundamentally different approach to its key goals on climate change, cleaning up rivers and poverty.

 

However, he added that "literally nothing is off the table", including a confidence and supply agreement with National."

 

A National - Greens coalition would bypass Winston's NZ First, something that would please both the Greens and National. Also, Act's David Seymour has ruled out working with Winston, but I think he would be prepared to be part of a National - Greens coalition.

 

If the Greens could soften some of their policies, such as capital gains taxes, for example, the whole country would benefit from Greens being in Government if they were to focus primarily on climate change. James Shaw has said that the Greens would obviously prefer to be in Government, rather than just part of a confidence and supply agreement. I think the Greens would achieve much more if they were in coalition with National than they would if they went with Labour and NZ First.

 

If you consider a Labour - Greens - NZ First coalition, this would have only 61 seats and I think it would be very hard for these 3 parties to work together, especially with such a wafer thin majority.

 

 

 

 

He was very clear last night in his pathetic desperation speech.

 

I havnt liked Bill at all, but last night I was super impressed by his speech and both interviews. He was the only party leader that actually embraced MMP and acted like a leader. He even acknowledged that he will now listen to NZ as they clearly got some things wrong. Jacinda was quite negative I thought from the time she left her house to her speech. Not sure what her speech was about, guess it was more values.

 

Whatever way it goes it will be entertaining. My guess this will be NZ Firsts last hurrah, as they wont exist without Winston in 2020.


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  Reply # 1871923 24-Sep-2017 12:24
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Geektastic:

It seems very odd to me that there is any possibility of NZ being governed by a coalition not involving the party for which the biggest percentage of New Zealanders voted. That would, surely, be fundamentally undemocratic?



a coalition of Labour, NZF, Green would be a Government that the majority of voters chose




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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gzt

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  Reply # 1871927 24-Sep-2017 12:33
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Wiggum:

So now we left with Wnston (who did not even win his own seat), with only 7% of the party vote, getting to chose the government for NZ. How on earth is that democratic? It stinks to say the least.


NZ First/Peters does not 'choose' the government. NZ First chooses which party they want to be part of government with.

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  Reply # 1871929 24-Sep-2017 12:36

Bill English at a Federated Farmers meeting...   'And now I would like to introduce my new Environment Minister James Shaw'    As a commentator on RNZ said this morning this is not going to happen.     For the Greens to remain viable at the next election they would have to score an amazing amount of concessions from National & even then the Green voters would see it as a betrayal...

 

Nats with NZ First so easy.     So easy to pass legislation.     No wheeling in of a sick MP to pass a bill.    Winston gets Deputy PM & acting PM when Bill E is away.     Gets a good deal for Northland.     Gets some policy that tightens (slightly) immigration rules & a few other bits and pieces.    Deal done.


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  Reply # 1871935 24-Sep-2017 12:43
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:

 

It seems very odd to me that there is any possibility of NZ being governed by a coalition not involving the party for which the biggest percentage of New Zealanders voted. That would, surely, be fundamentally undemocratic?

 



a coalition of Labour, NZF, Green would be a Government that the majority of voters chose

 

That just wouldnt work for more than a few months as it would only be 1 or 2 majority. But as I said it would be hilarious to watch. remember National got more votes than Labour and Greens combined, so I would say thats the biggest percentage of voters.


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  Reply # 1871989 24-Sep-2017 13:11
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:

 

It seems very odd to me that there is any possibility of NZ being governed by a coalition not involving the party for which the biggest percentage of New Zealanders voted. That would, surely, be fundamentally undemocratic?

 



a coalition of Labour, NZF, Green would be a Government that the majority of voters chose

 

 

 

No it wouldn't. 

 

It would involve 3 parties that obtained no sort of majority at all adding themselves together and pretending that means that someone who voted Labour also voted for the other two etc.

 

No wonder NZ spends more time going nowhere than somewhere if that is regarded as democracy.

 

It is clear (based on the as yet unfinalised numbers) that a majority of NZers want the National party to be involved. I just cannot see any kind of outcome being 'democratic' where that does not happen.

 

I accept that is the system, but there is just no way that resembles democracy IMV.






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  Reply # 1871990 24-Sep-2017 13:11
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sen8or: I still find it astounding that the greens are so arrogant and pigheaded to exclude working with a party.

 

I think you fundamentally misunderstand their position.

 

The Greens have been very clear about their commitment to change of government right from the start of their campaign because they wanted to be transparent with potential voters. To do a U-turn on that now and go into coalition or confidence and supply with National would be to alienate their supporters, and in my opinion that would be a sure-fire way to be kicked out next time around. I don't see it as a commitment that they'd never work with National. They just won't prop up a National government.

 

sen8or: They are a minor player and if they dropped their extreme socialist agenda and then pushed forward their green policies, the country would probably be in a much better position. They could have been part of the government for the last 9+ years and had real influence.

 

The "socialist agenda" as you call it has always been a been a part of the Greens ethos. Personally I think it fits, and I wouldn't even consider voting for your "neutered" version.

 

Maybe what you're looking for is a "blue green" party?


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  Reply # 1871996 24-Sep-2017 13:18
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Pumpedd: Whatever way it goes it will be entertaining. My guess this will be NZ Firsts last hurrah, as they wont exist without Winston in 2020.

It's hard to know what Peters has planned and how much succession and future planning he has done or is doing. His big plan appears to be expanding the Whangarei port operations and capacity and infrastructure associated with that. He's put Shane Jones in Whangarei which could work well as future planning for NZF along with that plan. Either major party is in a position to give him that without any real issues with their supporters. I'd be surprised if he didn't go with National, but I'm sure Peters will have reasons to go with Labour also if that is what he/the party chooses.

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