What will Winston do???

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#1879801 9-Oct-2017 11:49

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Rodney Hide's article in the Herald about MMP encapsulated the present position well, I thought.

What alternative do you suggest? When the largest party recieves 44% of the vote. And the second largest bloc recieves about 1 percent less?

I think that there are other versions of PR that would work better for us.

We need to avoid situations like the present one, where the election is largely pointless - we may as well have just phoned the party in question and asked them to pick the government.

I would suggest some sort of amendment whereby the party with the largest vote share gets automatic first go in negotiating.

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#1879819 9-Oct-2017 11:56

Geektastic:

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Rodney Hide's article in the Herald about MMP encapsulated the present position well, I thought.

What alternative do you suggest? When the largest party recieves 44% of the vote. And the second largest bloc recieves about 1 percent less?

I think that there are other versions of PR that would work better for us.

We need to avoid situations like the present one, where the election is largely pointless - we may as well have just phoned the party in question and asked them to pick the government.

I would suggest some sort of amendment whereby the party with the largest vote share gets automatic first go in negotiating.

I agree in general that it is probably timely for a review of the system. A healthy democracy should also look a the system to see if it can be improved upon.

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#1879820 9-Oct-2017 11:56

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Rodney Hide's article in the Herald about MMP encapsulated the present position well, I thought.

What alternative do you suggest? When the largest party recieves 44% of the vote. And the second largest bloc recieves about 1 percent less?

Instead of FPP or MMP

How about other versions of selecting for example

MMP - If major party cannot get coalition they have choice to form a minority govt or a re-election.

MMP - Instead of a tick for party vote, you RANK the parties. Some form of permutation where if your party does not make 5% you can choose another party, that has made the 5% threshold.

FPP - Rank parties and by elimination until one party stands. Eg Party 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Say first round party 4 is lowest. Then all of the party 4 votes get redistributed. Then second round ... third round.

There are more things in life than the "that's how we always do it" way.

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#1879825 9-Oct-2017 12:00

Or MMP, and no coalition. So every bill is voted by the MMP MP's, a minority Govt in todays case

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#1879828 9-Oct-2017 12:01

How would they work better? Why would they not end up in the position where one party is in the middle and gets to play off the opposing blocks to form a government?

MMP works fairly well. I would just like to see some tweaks, drop the threshold to 3% or even lower. Remove the electorate rule.

Everyone has been fine with MMP right up until Winston was placed in to the current position by the vote totals. Also pre-election negotiating is pointless. You can't come out with a deal until you know what everyone has. Besides everyone knew the positions going in to the election. Labour/Green on the left. National/Act on the right. Winston in the middle. Maori Party probably supporting National again despite the wishes of their voters.

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#1879830 9-Oct-2017 12:05

tdgeek:
Or MMP, and no coalition. So every bill is voted by the MMP MP's, a minority Govt in todays case

Given that most of the work of Government is done outside the Chamber it is kind of pointless. Also that could lead to political paralysis.

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#1879837 9-Oct-2017 12:19

MikeB4:
tdgeek:

Or MMP, and no coalition. So every bill is voted by the MMP MP's, a minority Govt in todays case

Given that most of the work of Government is done outside the Chamber it is kind of pointless. Also that could lead to political paralysis.

Yes, no mandate, and no ability to pass a law the Govt decides to, so it needs cooperation. It would effectively be a negotiation issue for every Bill. If some here feel that MMP doesnt work, coalitions dont work, then a minority Govt is the only other option. A benefit is there is dilution of radical ideas, and a need to work together, rather than oppose everything as you are paid to oppose everything. The adversarial way the Govt is run is stupid. One party who gets 50.1% of the seats can do whatever it likes. You oppose as thats what you do. A Minority Govt and the other parties would have to work together, so the non Govt parties would be able to get things done in a minority Govt, the other option is they will never get anything done. Or you end up with a coalition, thats the only other option. Similar issues to a minority Govt, except the latter is far more flexible, and more representative of all parties

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#1879844 9-Oct-2017 12:26

This post election coalition negotiations go against democracy. These should be done prior election and the scenarios presented to the voting public prior election. This way when you are casting your vote you know what you are voting for. This current system of back room secret negotiations is not how to do things and I feel (MY OPINION) that this is not what folks had in mind when MMP was selected as system of voting.

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#1879848 9-Oct-2017 12:37

Voting for any human is never very democratic. What they say is almost never what they do.

Maybe we should vote for policies! And have annual review of said policies! Anyway I like NZF's policies, after the fact. Here's hoping they will be implemented!

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#1879851 9-Oct-2017 12:41

Batman:

Voting for any human is never very democratic. What they say is almost never what they do.

Maybe we should vote for policies! And have annual review of said policies! Anyway I like NZF's policies, after the fact. Here's hoping they will be implemented!

Nah, we need an absolute Monarch after all that is where the US is heading or in the nighty fantasies of the current POTUS they are.

Government of the people, by the people, for the people, gets screwed by the people

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#1879876 9-Oct-2017 13:24

MikeB4:
Government of the people, by the people, for the people, gets screwed by the POTUS

There i fixed it for you

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#1879985 9-Oct-2017 17:01

gulfa:

My thoughts
Sit down with his group and list all their policies and line them up with each party
Decide which ones they want implemented in order of importance and which ones are non- negotiable.
Then decide what position he wants in the ruling party. If he is true to his word and beliefs he does not need to push for a prominent position but instead get his policies implemented. This will then show his followers and the rest of us that it is not all about him, which many seem to believe.
He has already said he has been this minister or had that position before. I believe if what he wants for his party and followers he should accept any position in Cabinet not necessarily Deputy PM.

Going back to the original opening post above and what will Winston do?

I believe he is very shrewd and he will do what is right for his party and the country .......... they will go to the cross benches. I think he is smart enough to have already formulated that very strong prospect on election night as the votes came through.

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#1880143 9-Oct-2017 23:53

DaveB:

Going back to the original opening post above and what will Winston do?

I believe he is very shrewd and he will do what is right for his party and the country .......... they will go to the cross benches. I think he is smart enough to have already formulated that very strong prospect on election night as the votes came through.

As in support for Confidence and Supply?

With that, can anyone define the Confidence meaning. I gather it means key legislation, but what is "key" legislation? What was agreed?

I gather he can still obtain out of Cabinet Ministries as Peter Dunne had. Perhaps if there was some but not enough agreement in negations he can go it alone, and have smaller agreements for NZF policies and agree to support some National policies, but otherwise, he can vote for or against Govt, or Labour/Green.

With those here that say that a coalition is not democratic, perhaps cross benches is?

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#1880185 10-Oct-2017 08:45

Confidence means - if there is a vote of no confidence in the PM-ship they will vote for confidence. Ie prevent any motion of no confidence nonsense.

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#1880188 10-Oct-2017 08:49

Batman:

Confidence means - if there is a vote of no confidence in the PM-ship they will vote for confidence. Ie prevent any motion of no confidence nonsense.

Ok, so they stand by the Govt. What about when say there are 5 bills to be voted on, does this confidence extend to supporting those?

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