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  Reply # 1886693 20-Oct-2017 09:13
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6FIEND:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Obviously only time will tell how things work out in practice, but it seems to me that the Greens got a pretty good deal and certainly would not have done any better in any conceivable arrangement with National. They seem to be getting on just fine with others so all the blather about their inability to work together or cope with reality is just that. Considering the challenges they faced during the election, I think Shaw has done an absolutely brilliant job. He must be very pleased.

 

 

 

 

That's an optimistic perspective :-)

 

Here's an alternative view.

 

NZ First refused to even meet with the Greens.  They insisted that all negotiations were exclusively with Labour.  That is the antithesis of working together.

 

James Shaw did an absolutely brilliant job of doing nothing whatsoever.  He had ZERO influence in the negotiations and he is now faced with meekly accepting what he's given (which includes ZERO cabinet ministers)

 

I personally believe that they would have achieved much more by negotiating with both major parties.

 

 

Peters wanted power so he got a two party coalition, hence the Greens were not involved, that's Labours problem to manage. I feel thats Peters drawing his line in the sand. However, Greens get portfolios which Peters has agreed with. It seems to make sense to keep it two party. Take next election, lets say its the same win, maybe NZF down a bit, Greens up a bit, they would get parity then, and after three years of cooperation, that would also make sense. I put it down to that working with the Greens is an unknown, so they can step back, but also be rewarded.


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  Reply # 1886694 20-Oct-2017 09:14
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6FIEND:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Obviously only time will tell how things work out in practice, but it seems to me that the Greens got a pretty good deal and certainly would not have done any better in any conceivable arrangement with National. They seem to be getting on just fine with others so all the blather about their inability to work together or cope with reality is just that. Considering the challenges they faced during the election, I think Shaw has done an absolutely brilliant job. He must be very pleased.

 

 

 

 

That's an optimistic perspective :-)

 

Here's an alternative view.

 

NZ First refused to even meet with the Greens.  They insisted that all negotiations were exclusively with Labour.  That is the antithesis of working together.

 

James Shaw did an absolutely brilliant job of doing nothing whatsoever.  He had ZERO influence in the negotiations and he is now faced with meekly accepting what he's given (which includes ZERO cabinet ministers)

 

I personally believe that they would have achieved much more by negotiating with both major parties.

 

 

 

 

I thought it was funny that Winston Peters, on National Television basically said he :hated: the Greens and wanted nothing to do with them. Sounds stable to me. Greens got no say in any of this. They got what they were given. 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1886696 20-Oct-2017 09:15
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networkn:

 

6FIEND:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Obviously only time will tell how things work out in practice, but it seems to me that the Greens got a pretty good deal and certainly would not have done any better in any conceivable arrangement with National. They seem to be getting on just fine with others so all the blather about their inability to work together or cope with reality is just that. Considering the challenges they faced during the election, I think Shaw has done an absolutely brilliant job. He must be very pleased.

 

 

 

 

That's an optimistic perspective :-)

 

Here's an alternative view.

 

NZ First refused to even meet with the Greens.  They insisted that all negotiations were exclusively with Labour.  That is the antithesis of working together.

 

James Shaw did an absolutely brilliant job of doing nothing whatsoever.  He had ZERO influence in the negotiations and he is now faced with meekly accepting what he's given (which includes ZERO cabinet ministers)

 

I personally believe that they would have achieved much more by negotiating with both major parties.

 

 

 

 

I thought it was funny that Winston Peters, on National Television basically said he :hated: the Greens and wanted nothing to do with them. Sounds stable to me. Greens got no say in any of this. They got what they were given. 

 

 

He said that this week?  Or back in the day when Turei was sending barbs to him, as PB still is?


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  Reply # 1886698 20-Oct-2017 09:18
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At one point the Greens were faced with annihilation. That didn't  happen. They now have three ministerial posts. That is new. I don't think they (Shaw) did badly at all in the circumstances. Could they have blackmailed the others into more if they had threatened to go with National? Maybe, but then there just would have been more squawking from certain quarters about their broken moral compass. I think they did quite well in the circumstances, though of course it is too much to expect those who are just determined not to like them to give them any credit.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1886703 20-Oct-2017 09:23
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Rikkitic:

 

At one point the Greens were faced with annihilation. That didn't  happen. They now have three ministerial posts. That is new. I don't think they (Shaw) did badly at all in the circumstances. Could they have blackmailed the others into more if they had threatened to go with National? Maybe, but then there just would have been more squawking from certain quarters about their broken moral compass. I think they did quite well in the circumstances, though of course it is too much to expect those who are just determined not to like them to give them any credit.

 

 

 

 

Just as it is to expect those with Green Tinted Glasses to see it for what it is. 

 

They couldn't have got any more from Labour. They got what they were given.

 

Why were they facing annihilation? Oh, that's right, broken moral compass and desperately terrible leadership.

 

Everything they achieve under this coalition will be because of what they are allowed by NZF and Labour.

 

 


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  Reply # 1886815 20-Oct-2017 10:39
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You just don't like them so are determined to put the worst possible spin on anything they do or don't do. Your opinion, your good right, fair enough. But they survived the election, are now 'part of the government' (that is what holding ministerial responsibility means) and have an opportunity to influence the future direction of New Zealand. Maybe they will do a good job. Maybe not. Maybe they won't have any impact at all. You seem to have already prejudged the outcome. I prefer to wait and see and then judge what they actually do. That seems fairer to me.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1886858 20-Oct-2017 12:23
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The current Green Party has decided it will stay as a left-wing party so a vote for them is in effect a vote for Labour.

 

Fair enough if that's what you want.

 

But I'm very disappointed at the way the Greens have been treated by Winston Peters. To refer only to the coalition of Labour and NZ First and exclude any mention of the Greens, is pretty unfair when you consider that the Greens were an essential part of defeating National. And for Winston to so totally ignore the Greens as he has done is just so bad.

 

I think we need a new Green Party, one that stands up for itself and one that will concentrate on Green policies and which will negotiate with either of the major parties. I wouldn't mind betting that a new Green Party will be formed along these lines before too long.

 

 


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  Reply # 1886862 20-Oct-2017 12:28
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Labour is a centre party as is National, NZ First. The Green Party is centre Left and Act Centre right.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1886864 20-Oct-2017 12:32
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frednz:

 

 

 

I think we need a new Green Party, one that stands up for itself and one that will concentrate on Green policies and which will negotiate with either of the major parties. I wouldn't mind betting that a new Green Party will be formed along these lines before too long.

 

 

 

 

And if they did that, THEN they would have my respect (But probably not my vote). I would have been happy if the Greens had actually even MET with National to TRY and find some common ground. This is where one of the two major areas Shaw failed in leadership. He took what was the "easy" way out, and as a result is being ignored. That isn't good for the party or for New Zealand. I expect resentment to build up over time and it to cause issues.


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  Reply # 1886866 20-Oct-2017 12:34
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So are you saying Shaw said before the election that the greens would swing either way?

 

 

 

That's not how I remember it. When did a man (shaw) sticking to his word (that the greens ruled out working with national) become such a bad thing?


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  Reply # 1886894 20-Oct-2017 12:46
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elpenguino:

 

So are you saying Shaw said before the election that the greens would swing either way?

 

 

 

That's not how I remember it. When did a man (shaw) sticking to his word (that the greens ruled out working with national) become such a bad thing?

 

 

OK, if that's not a bad thing, then perhaps when the new Green Party is established it should have a memorandum of understanding with National and not in any circumstances negotiate with Labour. This would at least match what Shaw's Greens have done who have been totally tied down (and ignored by NZ First) by having such an inflexible arrangement with Labour.

 

Perhaps there are a lot of people out there who are very strongly in favour of cleaning up our environment, but who would prefer a Green Party that is not so firmly fixed to Labour. I know a few people in this category who would vote for a Green Party if it was aligned with National and not with Labour!


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  Reply # 1886902 20-Oct-2017 13:01
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If you think a party like that is such a good idea, feel free to start it !

 

What will you call it and what colour will you choose for your marketing?

 

How much vote share do you estimate you will you get?

 

Would you only negotiate with National ?


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  Reply # 1886904 20-Oct-2017 13:05
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elpenguino:

 

So are you saying Shaw said before the election that the greens would swing either way?

 

 

 

That's not how I remember it. When did a man (shaw) sticking to his word (that the greens ruled out working with national) become such a bad thing?

 

 

That second comment is exactly why I have no respect for the Greens right now. Completely missing the point.

 

Cutting off your nose to spite your face, being stubborn, not being open to new possibilities? Not doing everything reasonable you can do, to advance your parties agenda for the good of your voters and NZ in general? 

 

Sounds like qualities I want in my leadership. NOT!

 

What would have been lost by sitting down and TRYING to see what common ground existed?

 

Or are you the type of person, that walks into the shop and buys the first tv you see, without any comparison? 


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  Reply # 1886906 20-Oct-2017 13:10
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elpenguino:

 

If you think a party like that is such a good idea, feel free to start it !

 

 

Why? The existing party will soon realize it can't continue with it's head in the sand type attitude.

 

 

What will you call it and what colour will you choose for your marketing?

 

 

I'd call it the "Intelligent Green Party" I'd market it in... GREEN. Might surprise you to know that the existing Green party don't own that colour.

 

 

How much vote share do you estimate you will you get?

 

 

That I can't tell you. Probably a reasonable amount. I'd probably take a reasonable number of Votes from the existing Greens.

 

 

Would you only negotiate with National ?

 

 

No, because I am not stupid, not stubborn, not fixed in my ideas, and I care about what my voters want, which is, a say, which I can't say if I a) don't make it to Parliment, or b) am so neutered whilst I am there, either in opposition, or as a completely powerless silent parter in a coalition.


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  Reply # 1886909 20-Oct-2017 13:14
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TBH it's totally the point. He signalled what the greens were going to do to the electorate well ahead. Votes are given with that knowledge.

 

To then go ahead and negotiate a deal with national would be scumbaggery of the highest order. You might expect that from other politicians but the greens like to take the moral high ground.

 

I'd say they're enjoying the view up there today !

 

 


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