Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 


5676 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2576

Subscriber

  Reply # 1877198 4-Oct-2017 13:30
3 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

My point is based on a principle which I believe to be true. It is one you ought to appreciate. The principle is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Certain things have certain costs, and if they are not paid in one way, they will have to be paid in another.

 

One way is to have lower taxes and to keep more money at home while at the same time neglecting social expenditure that can no longer be afforded. The result is more poverty, more desperation, more deprivation, more crime, general social disintegration. You no longer dare to walk the streets of your neighbourhood. Your children are subjected to attacks at school. Your house gets burgled every week. There are no police because there are no public funds to pay them. Your standard of living declines, even though you do have more money.

 

Another approach is to pay more up front so that these kinds of social costs do not accumulate. There is then no need to build expensive prisons after the damage has been done. Your taxes are higher, but homelessness, extreme poverty, desperation robberies, violence stemming from a sense of hopelessness, frustration and impotence, a general lowering of social standards, all these things are greatly reduced. You pay more one way to avoid paying more the other. This seems to be what the Finnish experience says.

 

Is that true? I don't know. What I do know is that we already have the homelessness, the high prison rate, the deprivation, the robberies and burglaries and other crime. Maybe it is time to try something else.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


14609 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3674

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1877225 4-Oct-2017 13:38
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

Rikkitic:

 

My point is based on a principle which I believe to be true. It is one you ought to appreciate. The principle is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. Certain things have certain costs, and if they are not paid in one way, they will have to be paid in another.

 

One way is to have lower taxes and to keep more money at home while at the same time neglecting social expenditure that can no longer be afforded. The result is more poverty, more desperation, more deprivation, more crime, general social disintegration. You no longer dare to walk the streets of your neighbourhood. Your children are subjected to attacks at school. Your house gets burgled every week. There are no police because there are no public funds to pay them. Your standard of living declines, even though you do have more money.

 

Another approach is to pay more up front so that these kinds of social costs do not accumulate. There is then no need to build expensive prisons after the damage has been done. Your taxes are higher, but homelessness, extreme poverty, desperation robberies, violence stemming from a sense of hopelessness, frustration and impotence, a general lowering of social standards, all these things are greatly reduced. You pay more one way to avoid paying more the other. This seems to be what the Finnish experience says.

 

Is that true? I don't know. What I do know is that we already have the homelessness, the high prison rate, the deprivation, the robberies and burglaries and other crime. Maybe it is time to try something else.

 

 

 

 

You have conveniently failed to answer the question I asked, which was, do you think it's reasonable to increase GST by 9% to cater for this? What do you think will happen to the lower income families in NZ once that happens?

 

You have simplified things to the point where everything else that impacts upon that is no longer taken into account. 

 

 


 
 
 
 


Onward
11250 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4989

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1877244 4-Oct-2017 14:19
Send private message quote this post

Wiggum:

 

Rikkitic:

 

The issue isn't about cost. It is about what a society is prepared to pay to make a better society.

 

 

And charity begins at home, which means people will rather put money towards the health/well-being of their own family/relatives instead of an increased tax, where government gets to decide on who really needs it, and how to spend it.

 

Personally I think NZ has a much better system than Finland. Plus, us kiwis are a generous bunch, and many of us already give to plenty of charities regardless. Fins are not a very generous bunch.

 

 

 

 

Evidence for this claim ?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 




5676 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2576

Subscriber

  Reply # 1877261 4-Oct-2017 14:34
2 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

networkn:

 

You have conveniently failed to answer the question I asked, which was, do you think it's reasonable to increase GST by 9% to cater for this? What do you think will happen to the lower income families in NZ once that happens?

 

You have simplified things to the point where everything else that impacts upon that is no longer taken into account. 

 

 

I stated a principle I believe in. You can agree with it or not. I wasn't trying to avoid your question, I just don't think it is honest because one cannot reasonably give a straight yes or no answer. There conceivably are circumstances in which a 9% increase might be reasonable and doable. After all, the Finns seem to have done it. There could be measures to spare lower incomes. You present your question as if it is an all or nothing proposition. It wouldn't be.

 

Perhaps I have oversimplified to make a point. So what? I find it perplexing how unwilling people can be even to consider different ways of doing things when the existing ones clearly aren't working well.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


160 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 53


  Reply # 1877265 4-Oct-2017 14:41
Send private message quote this post

Rikkitic 

 

 

Is that true? I don't know. What I do know is that we already have the homelessness, the high prison rate, the deprivation, the robberies and burglaries and other crime. Maybe it is time to try something else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I agree we need to try a different approach but I remember years  ago One politician commented that we don't want to cure these problems because if we did we would have thousands of Lawyers courts systems social workers all being made redundant

 

Makes you wonder


160 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 53


  Reply # 1877273 4-Oct-2017 14:52
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

It is also of interest to see when suggestions are made to look at other systems we seem to have a couple of commentators making comments that are always negative. (They know who they are)I think we should be encouraging creative thinkers and look at the suggestions in depth instead of the negative approach of "lets pull this apart".


964 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 363


  Reply # 1877808 5-Oct-2017 11:50
Send private message quote this post

Rikkitic:

 

I find it perplexing how unwilling people can be even to consider different ways of doing things when the existing ones clearly aren't working well.

 

 

Its simple really. More taxing of our taxpayers can achieve a lot. And yes it will improve a lot (If done right).

 

Is this the only option though? This is where I disagree, i certainly would hate to see us going down the same path as Finland, taxing citizens so hard. And just because I'm unwilling to want to spend more on tax, it does not mean I am unwilling to help, or consider different ways. The only different ways ever offered here however seem to be the ones where the government needs more money from taxpayers. Thats why I'm unwilling to entertain them.


40 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1877883 5-Oct-2017 14:11
Send private message quote this post

I personally agree with Gareth on the post-election results when he says that NZders are selfish and I believe that most of us don't even realize it. Which is one of the reasons I don't like labour or the greens - Champagne socialists at their best. 


964 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 363


  Reply # 1877889 5-Oct-2017 14:33
Send private message quote this post

mrfte:

 

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finns_on_finns_were_hard_working_but_greedy_and_intolerant/7370176 

 

 

Thanks for that, I have always has a similar opinion about the Finns. @MikeB4 ^^^


14609 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3674

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1877947 5-Oct-2017 15:50
2 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

gulfa:

 

It is also of interest to see when suggestions are made to look at other systems we seem to have a couple of commentators making comments that are always negative. (They know who they are)I think we should be encouraging creative thinkers and look at the suggestions in depth instead of the negative approach of "lets pull this apart".

 

 

 

 

As opposed to the bull in a China shop, let's not consider all the factors before making a decision "amazing creative types"?

 

You don't need to go into depth to understand why there are major differences between Finland and us. If you don't think 9% increase in GST (or similarly significant tax of some other type) would be required to do the same, then you don't have much of a grip on Economics. The start of any conversation would be to find out how many people would be interested in entertaining such an increase. You are choosing to make accusations because the reality is, if it was an easy problem to fix, everyone would have already done it. 

 

 


14609 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3674

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1877950 5-Oct-2017 15:53
2 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

gulfa:

 

Rikkitic 

 

 

Is that true? I don't know. What I do know is that we already have the homelessness, the high prison rate, the deprivation, the robberies and burglaries and other crime. Maybe it is time to try something else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I agree we need to try a different approach but I remember years  ago One politician commented that we don't want to cure these problems because if we did we would have thousands of Lawyers courts systems social workers all being made redundant

 

Makes you wonder

 

 

Right, because one persons comments always reflect those of the rest of the nation.

 

Everything in running a country is balance. You either tip the scales to more socialist or more capitalist. There is only so much money in the pot. If you want more money for the poor, you take it from the less poor. 

 

 

 

 




5676 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2576

Subscriber

  Reply # 1877975 5-Oct-2017 16:34
2 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

You are right that it is a matter of balance and priorities. I just wonder, in view of our social problems, if we have the balance right. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


14609 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3674

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1878388 6-Oct-2017 11:08
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

Rikkitic:

 

You are right that it is a matter of balance and priorities. I just wonder, in view of our social problems, if we have the balance right. 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's right now. I don't support a 9% increase in GST to improve it either. I could possibly live with the increase, but the impact on already struggling families would push a greater number under the "poverty line" (for the record I don't believe poverty should be used to describe anyone in NZ, compared with the real definition internationally), which then creates an even greater number of social welfare dependants, and puts an even greater strain on everyone else and a spiral effect occurs. I support action, but not action on a knee jerk poorly thought out solution where all the potential impacts have been ratified properly. I have seen nothing in Labours policy that I think "solves" the issues they profess to care so much about, and the Greens have social policies which are so devoid of financial reasoning to defy belief. (I support a number of "green" Green party policies.

 

 

 

I would support a turn around by National on Tax cuts, if that money went to social policies. Not blindly increasing the amounts handed to people by way of a cash increase, but something meaningful. Something that helped directly, but also worked toward a longer term goal of helping less fortunate families build toward changes that would affect them positively going forward. Teach a man to fish type stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


1 | 2 
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Nokia 8 review: Classy midrange pure Android phone
Posted 16-Oct-2017 07:27


Why carriers might want to embrace Commerce Commission study, MVNOs
Posted 13-Oct-2017 09:42


Fitbit launches Ionic, its health and fitness smartwatch
Posted 12-Oct-2017 15:52


Xero launches machine learning automation to improve coding accuracy for small businesses
Posted 12-Oct-2017 15:45


Bank of New Zealand uses Intel AI to detect financial crime
Posted 12-Oct-2017 15:39


Sony launches Xperia XZ1, a smartphone with real-time 3D capture
Posted 11-Oct-2017 10:26


Notes on Nokia’s phone comeback
Posted 10-Oct-2017 10:06


Air New Zealand begins Inflight Wi-Fi rollout
Posted 9-Oct-2017 20:16


The latest mobile phones in perspective
Posted 9-Oct-2017 18:34


Review: Acronis True Image 2018 — serious backup
Posted 8-Oct-2017 11:22


Lenovo launches ThinkPad Anniversary Edition 25
Posted 7-Oct-2017 23:16


Less fone, more tech as Vodafone gets brand make-over
Posted 6-Oct-2017 08:16


API Talent Achieves AWS MSP Partner Status
Posted 5-Oct-2017 21:20


Stellar Consulting Group now a Domo Partner
Posted 5-Oct-2017 21:03


Xero passes quarter of a million subscriber milestone in UK
Posted 5-Oct-2017 21:02



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.