Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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Awrrr
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#1893230 31-Oct-2017 16:20

On reflection, I think this is veering in an unhelpful direction again. I would like to return, if possible, to arguing the issues and not the people presenting their viewpoints. I am also guilty of going after the person and I will really try to avoid that in future. I would appreciate it if others would also refrain from questioning my intelligence or understanding if I advocate a particular viewpoint. No-one is ever all right or all wrong in these kinds of things. We can all learn and take from each other, regardless of political belief. Let us return to mutual respect.

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MikeB4

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#1893231 31-Oct-2017 16:22

This thread reminds me of what my Business Lecturer always said, politics and religion avoid discussions at all costs.

Pumpedd

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#1893235 31-Oct-2017 16:37

MikeB4:

This thread reminds me of what my Business Lecturer always said, politics and religion avoid discussions at all costs.

Too long ago for me to recall....too many red wines maybe.

networkn

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#1893237 31-Oct-2017 16:39

Rikkitic:

There are a few people here, just two or three, who want to dominate any political discussion with their own agenda and drive out anyone who disagrees.

Do you consider yourself one of these few?

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#1893251 31-Oct-2017 17:28

I do not, but if you want to include me, feel free. I would like to move beyond the personal back and forth. Let's talk about ideas, not each other.

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Rikkitic

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#1893267 31-Oct-2017 18:49

Pumpedd:

They have also decided to interfere in the Wellington Trolly Bus demise.....kind of strange when these were going to be replaced with EV busses over the next few years. IMO Tywford is a total idiot....he is now on a power trip. He will also want to ban anyone with a chinese looking name from owning a house.

Don't be too quick to assume the worst. According to this Twyford has decided to stay out of it.

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DaveB

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#1893333 31-Oct-2017 21:21

dwilson:

Rikkitic: Maybe those so overcome with animosity should just go do something else for awhile and quite polluting these threads with spiteful remarks that don't add anything.

It's all they have and all they are capable of, they are currently being replaced in society as evolution marches ahead. It's not just New Zealand, it's all over. The writing is on the wall for a particular demographic and they don't like it at all. Yet they are completely helpless to stop it, since they are unwilling to change.

I find posts like yours above very divisive, repulsive almost. Some liberal snowflakes would even wet their panties, finding it offensive believing that society has already moved ahead. But nonetheless, your post is quite funny. IMO, it is a very naïve reflection of a belief I had many years ago, a belief that the world was against me because they are wrong and I, I alone am right.

When all you talk about in your comments above, and, an earlier reply is .... "all THEY are capable of" and "THEY are currently being replaced in society" as EVOLUTION (?) marches ahead? I cannot help and ask myself WTF do you mean?

Are you really a reflection of what NZ has become? A reflection of what GeekZone could become in the next few years?

I for one hope not, I really do hope not. Such a divisive attitude as yours suggests to me that us long paying taxpayers, employers, employees and long term subscribers to GZ have really, really failed and let this country down.

Take a few moments to look at what has happened over the past 40 years within NZ and compare that to what has happened elsewhere in the world. You might just wake up and realize just how f***ing lucky your sorry subsidized arse is. But somehow, I don't think you will.

From where this National supporter stands? We are a centrist country and a change of Government will cause no major damage to this country, one way or the other. Regardless I have contingency plans in place to protect my staff if things get too difficult under this Government (which I doubt they will). That's all part of the evolutionary wheel of fortune. Completely helpless to stop it? Bring it on I say. It keeps us on our feet.

END OF RANT!

dwilson

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#1893406 1-Nov-2017 07:04

DaveB:

dwilson:

Rikkitic: Maybe those so overcome with animosity should just go do something else for awhile and quite polluting these threads with spiteful remarks that don't add anything.

It's all they have and all they are capable of, they are currently being replaced in society as evolution marches ahead. It's not just New Zealand, it's all over. The writing is on the wall for a particular demographic and they don't like it at all. Yet they are completely helpless to stop it, since they are unwilling to change.

From where this National supporter stands? We are a centrist country and a change of Government will cause no major damage to this country, one way or the other.

I am glad two people who have voted National (just not this particular election for me), who pay a lot tax and love living in New Zealand can agree.

Let's take a look at you Dave, you don't seem to be overcome with animosity (aside from raging dislike for me) and I don't really see you polluting political threads ... clearly my commentary was not meant for you. Nice rant though, I'll give it a 6/10 for calling me repulsive.

networkn

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#1893442 1-Nov-2017 08:53

dwilson:

DaveB:

dwilson:

Rikkitic: Maybe those so overcome with animosity should just go do something else for awhile and quite polluting these threads with spiteful remarks that don't add anything.

It's all they have and all they are capable of, they are currently being replaced in society as evolution marches ahead. It's not just New Zealand, it's all over. The writing is on the wall for a particular demographic and they don't like it at all. Yet they are completely helpless to stop it, since they are unwilling to change.

From where this National supporter stands? We are a centrist country and a change of Government will cause no major damage to this country, one way or the other.

I am glad two people who have voted National (just not this particular election for me), who pay a lot tax and love living in New Zealand can agree.

Let's take a look at you Dave, you don't seem to be overcome with animosity (aside from raging dislike for me) and I don't really see you polluting political threads ... clearly my commentary was not meant for you. Nice rant though, I'll give it a 6/10 for calling me repulsive.

He said your post was repulsive, he did not say you were. He was criticizing the behaviour.

gulfa

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#1893465 1-Nov-2017 09:46

Change is a process not an event
Many posters on this forum seem to forget this. Regardless of which political group (groups) most of us want a country we can be proud of. Not just our sports and cultural successes but also economic positions. The living in cars and homeless living on the streets is not something we as a country can be proud of. As a result of this and other actions or inactions by National+ we as a nation have voted for change. Several have shown their dislike of this change yet they appear to be financially very secure and I wonder why they are so unhappy. I consider myself to be a reasonably comfortable pensioner who now has the time to spend with my family and grandchildren. I now have time to read and spend some time on these forums but am quite surprised at how some seem to resort to personal attacks rather than deal with issues. Some of you need to go back and read some of the stuff you have written. I guess many of you who post regularly must also be retired as when I was working I didn’t have the time to get involved. Perhaps we have joined the grumpy old men’s brigade (This is not meant to be a sexist statement) I to have now finished my rant, get out and enjoy your life with your families and grandchildren.

networkn

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#1893511 1-Nov-2017 10:22

gulfa:

Change is a process not an event
Many posters on this forum seem to forget this. Regardless of which political group (groups) most of us want a country we can be proud of. Not just our sports and cultural successes but also economic positions. The living in cars and homeless living on the streets is not something we as a country can be proud of. As a result of this and other actions or inactions by National+ we as a nation have voted for change. Several have shown their dislike of this change yet they appear to be financially very secure and I wonder why they are so unhappy. I consider myself to be a reasonably comfortable pensioner who now has the time to spend with my family and grandchildren. I now have time to read and spend some time on these forums but am quite surprised at how some seem to resort to personal attacks rather than deal with issues. Some of you need to go back and read some of the stuff you have written. I guess many of you who post regularly must also be retired as when I was working I didn’t have the time to get involved. Perhaps we have joined the grumpy old men’s brigade (This is not meant to be a sexist statement) I to have now finished my rant, get out and enjoy your life with your families and grandchildren.

My issues are with policies. Labours are on the whole largely at odds with what I feel is right for NZ. Labour has long held a combative view of small business and employers, and I feel that National has a much more "fair" view of this. This affects me personally, but also every one of the 150,000 small businesses that employ at least 1 person and provide one of the major backbones to NZ (not just financially).

There are some ratbag employers, and some ratbag employees but Labour only cares about protecting employees despite the damage they can cause in a business (potentially significantly affecting both stakeholders and employees as a result). You never see Labour implementing stronger penalties or compliance on individuals.

It's entirely unreasonable to blame National for all the poor people in NZ, they exist in every society and there were plenty of them under Labour prior to National. There are some fringe extreme cases in NZ that get a lot of publicity that don't represent the average situation.

I couldn't care less about my loss of tax cuts, I have long supported the view that even Nationals prior tax cuts should have been implemented instead as greater spending on Healthcare and education. I do not beneficiary bash, though I firmly believe that welfare should be a temporary assistance situation not something you rely on because you "won't make much more working anyway". If you have a long-term genuine illness, the public should support you. Equally, there are a lot of people on sickness benefits who could retrain and work in other industries. I support a minimum wage increase but I consider $20.20 over 3 Years from the current 15.75 is insanity, especially since the people likely to be affected by that are the ones who purchase minimum wage worker product which will increase in price. It's a circular problem. They are going to increase "incomes" and then increase "costs". I support the banning of overseas buyers buying houses in NZ at least temporarily. I support a reduction of immigration, though no-where near the reduction that Labour is suggesting. Winston wants a significant drop in the dollar to support exporters, and whilst I understand the rationale, it's hardly going to help the poor in NZ who will end up paying significantly more for everthing we import (the vast majority of everything).

Their Education policy of providing free university for a year to someone without any checks or balances is flawed. Even something as fundamental as If you pass at least 75% of your papers it's free, otherwise, 50% of the cost goes on your student loan or something similar would be something of an improvement.

Labour didn't have a clue for 9 years, they were appalling in opposition and it has been mentioned a few times. In 5 months with the same basic policies, they are now in power and that frightens me. People voted in JA, not Labour in my view, which is dangerous.

They didn't properly think out their tax policy but in less than 1 term were prepared to change taxation for 5 million people. Thankfully they couldn't hold the line on that one, but it shows in my review a lack of rationalization and forethought I'd prefer was present in our leaders.

Weed Referendum? Seriously? We want things to make people more productive!

I could go on for a while like this.

Rikkitic

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#1893549 1-Nov-2017 12:01

I agree with a lot of what you say. Not all of it, of course, but I appreciate your intelligent and well thought out statement of where you stand and why. At least it makes sense. I will try to respond in kind soon.

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networkn

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#1893656 1-Nov-2017 14:13

My feeling is that Labour have promised so much that they have made themselves easy target for what I expect is strong opposition. They won't be able to deliver on a fair amount of it, and I expect the books to look (maybe much) worse under Labour than under National, even taking into account a more left looking National campaign and including the demands of a coalition partner. Healthcare and Education won't get the boost it needed (despite it being a "priority" to Labour) because they gave WP a Billion for his regions policy. What floored me the most was the Greens backing down on the Kermadec thing. That seems an absolute betrayal of their values, hence they copped a fair bit of flak from me, given how ecstatic they are over a weed referendum (They should have traded one for the other my view).

Rikkitic

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#1893665 1-Nov-2017 14:36

OK, here is my statement:

I hate political labels. They get used as substitutes for thought. They are like cages. As soon as a label is stuck on someone, everything else that defines that person ceases to matter. You are simply a communist, or a tory, or something else that has nothing to do with the reality of being human.

At the same time, labels are hard to get around. They also serve as verbal shortcuts and can be useful as long as they don’t become the whole picture. Labels that would probably be attached to me are ‘left-wing’ or ‘progressive’. I don’t like either of those. Progressive implies that non-progressives are backward and I don’t think that is fair or accurate. That is the problem with labels.

I do not support the Greens or Greenpeace, though I agree with many of their policies. I am not a ‘tree-hugger’. I don’t like being placed by those who don’t know me in a ‘left-wing’ box, whatever that is. But if the political spectrum is defined as left and right, then I would be more left than right on many issues, though not all. I also have libertarian tendencies.

I don’t know what creates a political viewpoint. I don’t know why I feel as I do about certain political issues. For some reason, I have always passionately hated what I perceive as injustice of any kind. This dates back at least to the time I learned to walk, possibly sooner. I don’t know where it came from. I just can’t stand unfairness. This has made me a social welfare progressive, because I think everyone deserves a fair go. I do NOT think everyone deserves a free handout. This is a box others try to put me in because they think I am a ‘lefty’. It is not what I believe.

I have never voted for Labour, also not in the last election, though I have voted for the Greens. I have never voted for them because I agree with their policies. I have voted for them strategically, to act as a voice for the ignored and to help keep the big parties honest.

I do not believe National and those who support conservative politics are repositories of evil. National has done some things I applaud, such as getting rid of the silly six-month warrant of fitness and injecting a comparative note of sanity into our copyright laws. But I have never voted National and probably never would. I don’t care for their obsession with road-building and their disregard for public transport and the environment. I think they failed to do anything meaningful to deal with major issues in housing, public health, public service broadcasting, drug law reform, homelessness and poverty, and a number of other things dear to my heart. I think fiscal responsibility is important, but I also think National has the balance wrong. There is far too much emphasis on the almighty dollar and far too little regard for values that cannot be measured in money.

I am glad Winston Peters made the choice he did, but I would not have been in despair if he had gone the other way. I believe we do need a change, and I don’t believe National is capable of delivering that, but I also don’t believe that three more years of National would have been an unmitigated disaster. At worst, it would have just been three more years of the same. We could have survived that.

Will the new government make a mess of things? I don’t doubt they will make a mess of some things. Every government does. I do wish the critics would ease up a little and at least give them a chance to settle in before pronouncing every hum and haw a disaster. They will do some things wrong and they will probably do some things right. Let’s wait and see.

Although I prefer Jacinda over Bill, I am not enthusiastic about the system that got her there. MMP is preferable to FPP, but both give far too much power to political parties. A much better system in my view would be one that gives no power to political parties at all, but directly elects MPs and governments by means of Single Transferable Vote.

And just to get this out of the way, I do not much care whether (some) drugs are legalised for recreational use or not. Personally, I haven’t touched any illegal drugs for about 50 years. What I want is to see all drug use decriminalised and brought under health care. I want to see medical marijuana made available to those who can benefit from it without all the nonsense hysterical restrictions. I think people who want to use it recreationally and grow their own should be left alone. The prohibitions and punishments are ridiculous and massively overblown. I think the referendum is a good thing because the people, rather than the politicians, can finally say what they think about it. If the majority want to keep it unavailable for recreational use, I am fine with that if it is what the majority want, as long as it is taken out of the criminal sphere.

This, in broad terms, is what I believe. I could add a lot more, but this is already too long.

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tdgeek

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#1893787 1-Nov-2017 19:33

A few lengthy posts by (if I may say so) two occasional adversaries. Good posts.

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