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474 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1989691 6-Apr-2018 19:23
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I don't bother posting in this thread too much because I'm busy during the day and can only come on at night, and out of the many other things I want to do on the internet, scrolling through the several pages that get added to this thread since the last time and all the comments I would want to reply to would take all night :(

 

There are definitely a vocal half dozen or so in this thread who are clearly right wing, however lets keep things in perspective.. maybe a couple dozen people at most would read this thread out of 4.5m in NZ. Labour and the coalition are still in government, the sun still rises in the east, houses and trams are being planned and will be built in Auckland soon enough, etc etc.

 

Also heard on ZB today on two separate shows some chat about the Curran/RNZ issue and everyone agrees its a "beltway" thing and both frothing right wing HDPA and her hubby had people come up to them and ask what the issue actually was - people don't understand it. Or care. As I said several days ago.

 

Ciao!


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  # 1989815 6-Apr-2018 23:20
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MaxLV:

Promise 1. The fuel excise tax increase is not a new tax. It's an increase on a current tax. 


Promise 2. As you yourself stated, the government has 2+ years, did you really expect 100,000 new homes to suddenly appear? Good things take time.


Promise 3. Over 10 years remember. they've still got over nine years to get the trees planted, and as discussed in previous debates here, planting 1 million trees is easily done.




Lol. I can't hardly believe you actually brought yourself to say that. "The fuel excise tax is not a new tax"... 😂😂😂😂. In the most technical sense you're correct, but in the actual reality of the world we live in you're way off the mark. It's not a sum we're paying at the moment. It's a new amount of money that will be coming out of your pocket, therefore my friend it's a new tax. "What's in a name? That which we call a 'new' tax by any other word would smell as rank"

As for the houses and trees, they have actually indicated that they don't intend to meet those targets, so while the deadline remains 2020, the reality is if they intend to break them, then I consider them broken.


And finally, some wise words for you to mull over:



I have no objection to your quote, though it must be taken in perspective, not as an absolute statement, but I thought I'd add another:
“Friend, you cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. And what one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government can’t give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody. And when half of the people get the idea they don’t have to work because the other half’s going to take care of them, and when the other half get the idea it does no good to work because somebody’s going to get what I work for. That, dear friend, is about the end of any nation.”

 
 
 
 


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  # 1989818 6-Apr-2018 23:50
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MaxLV:

 

As I have previously noted, the so called broken promises and perceived lack of honesty only exist in the minds of National party supporters.  

 

You're right, the current government does have 2+ years to fix the mess the previous government has made...

 

$600 million bonus in tax revenues??? LOL and one stage the National government were borrowing $300+ a week just to run the country! They ran up government debt from $5billion to over $90 billion that we ALL have to pay back. The current government debt (due mostly to the previous government) can be found here: https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand

 

This $600 million wont even come close to fixing the huge fiscal problems the previous government has caused by it's mismanagement and incompetence. 

It is going to cost several BILLION to fix just one DHB's buildings caused by the National government withholding capital investments for the DHB's.

 

[National’s] 2010 tax cuts were inappropriate in a recessionary economy with high levels of inequality and poverty. National used the crisis and a supposed excessive debt level (even at its peak, still much lower than most countries in the OECD) to justify a programme of spending cuts for its entire period in office. It put off spending in a host of areas that would inevitably come home to roost on a future Government including in Health, Superannuation, Education, Housing, Poverty, Environment and Conservation. This is not responsible fiscal management: it is turning a blind eye to the future.
http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/04/gordon-campbell-on-middlemore-hospital-as-a-symptom-of-neglect/

 

 

When National came to power in 2008, NZ had just entered a recession. This means both falling tax revenues, and falling GDP. Massive spending cuts would have been required to keep debt to GDP ratios and government debt at previous levels. This would have been the worst decision to make during a recession. Taking on more debt to temporally stimulate the economy during a recession was the right decision at the time. The 2010 tax cuts were also part of that stimulus. As the extra money that people got from the tax cuts would have been either saved or spent. Which both helped to provide extra capital to the banks, and to stimulate the economy through more spending.

 

And a big thing to GZ members - National under John Key got the UFB network build started. Provided funding for RBI broadband as well. And in the National goverment's final days, Signed the UFB2+ contracts. Which will take the UFB network up to 87% coverage when it is complete.

 

National introduced the RUC exemption for electric cars. Which helped to kick start the uptake of electric cars. National Fast tracked the resource consents for the Te Mihi Geothermal power scheme. The extra available power lowered power prices, and caused the Otahuhu B and Southdown gas fired power stations to close down. 2 of the 4 Huntly coal generators were also decommissioned. And Genesis Energy threatened to close down the remaining 2 coal generators as well. Overall a major win for the Environment under National.

 

National made tax changes that directly hurt landlords. Changing assessment of income under working for families from Nett income to gross income. Removing the ability to claim depreciation on most buildings. And getting rid of LAQCs (replaced with look through companies).

 

There are also things I hated about National.

 

Their failure to rein in the councils and reform the Resource Management act. This is the main contributor to high house prices. As it limits the number of new houses being built. And it limits tax revenue as well. As each new house built earns the government lots of extra tax.

 

Setting up the Auckland Supercity council. And forcing the council to introduce capital value based rating. As that reduced the holding costs of land bankers, at the same time putting extra costs on the owners of apartments.






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  # 1989884 7-Apr-2018 08:35
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Aredwood:

 

National made tax changes that directly hurt landlords. Changing assessment of income under working for families from Nett income to gross income. Removing the ability to claim depreciation on most buildings. And getting rid of LAQCs (replaced with look through companies).

 

 

While I broadly agree with the rest of your post, the LTC rules didn't ultimately change much and the depreciation on buildings was merely a timing issue, but the point still stands that they, combined with the Brightline Test, represent more action when it came to housing investment than Labour could muster in their term over the previous nine years.

 

Accoprding to some posters here, houses cost $200K in Auckland and there was no homelessness prior to National getting elected in November 2008.  

 

If anything, the Brightline Test and the Mixed Use Asset rules were more substantive reforms that will have a greater future impact; both legislated under National. 


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  # 1989919 7-Apr-2018 10:24
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MaxLV:

 

rjt123:

 

Promise 1: No new taxes  **BROKEN**

 

Promise 2: 100,000 new homes   **BROKEN**

 

Promise 3: 1,000,000 trees  **BROKEN**

 

 

Promise 1. The fuel excise tax increase is not a new tax. It's an increase on a current tax. 

 

Promise 2. As you yourself stated, the government has 2+ years, did you really expect 100,000 new homes to suddenly appear? Good things take time.

 

Promise 3. Over 10 years remember. they've still got over nine years to get the trees planted, and as discussed in previous debates here, planting 1 million trees is easily done.

 

rjt123:

 

The $600 million EXTRA in tax revenues was over and above treasury forecasts, so you're welcome to laugh out loud, but as loud as you laugh you still can't laugh it away. Does it worry me that they were borrow $300 million a week. No. But it would appear to concern you, so it begs the question, should they have borrowed MORE to spend more on "Health, Superannuation, Education, Housing, Poverty, Environment and Conservation"? Would that be a more prudent fiscal approach? Or should they have not done the tax cuts and spent more? Or should they have not done the tax cuts and spent nothing extra and dragged the recession out even longer? Perhaps in your warped sense of economics a recession is a good thing and should be prolonged for the benefit of all NZ? Few people in a period of decreasing interest rates actually put extra disposable income into the bank, they spend it, it goes back into the economy, it boosts spending, it boosts the economy. There is a principle behind it, a sound principle that paid off well in terms of a strong economy. 

 

 

Again I refer you to this:

 

Week by week, the sheer scale of the neglect to crucial social infrastructure by the Key/English government becomes apparent – and with it the size (and expense) of the problems they’ve left behind, for the Ardern government to somehow address. The mouldering walls and the decaying electricity and sewage systems at Middlemore Hospital serve as a perfect symbol of the dilapidation that’s been fostered by pressure to meet the political goals of budgetary constraint. All of it done so that John Key and Bill English could brag about being capable managers, who kept expenditure under control – as if balancing the books was an end in itself.

 

Meanwhile at Middlemore, the necessary investments in maintenance were being deferred – as they have has been in DHBs all around the country, in order to prop up the illusion of competence by a [National] government always far more interested in delivering another round of tax cuts, if it possibly could. It didn’t want to hear bad news. Its managers in public health heard that, and obeyed orders.

 

http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/04/gordon-campbell-on-middlemore-hospital-as-a-symptom-of-neglect/

And finally, some wise words for you to mull over:

 

The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
32nd U.S. President

 

 

 

 

Personally I never found much to recommend Roosevelt myself. I can't see any reason to provide anything to those who have too little. Survival of the fittest usually wins out in any animal or human society and the fact that all this economic attempt to circumvent that never actually succeeds in reality is the result.

 

Also, suggesting that one badly maintained hospital is some sort of archetypical exemplar of the preceding 9 years of government is ludicrous. Our local hospital is clean, well maintained and remarkably efficient. Wellington gained a new hospital. I might just as well cite those as exemplars of the excellence of the National government.

 

Local managers are responsible for organising maintenance of hospitals, not the people who sit in the Beehive.






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  # 1991117 7-Apr-2018 16:07
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MaxLV:

 

Week by week, the sheer scale of the neglect to crucial social infrastructure by the Key/English government becomes apparent – and with it the size (and expense) of the problems they’ve left behind, for the Ardern government to somehow address. The mouldering walls and the decaying electricity and sewage systems at Middlemore Hospital serve as a perfect symbol of the dilapidation that’s been fostered by pressure to meet the political goals of budgetary constraint. All of it done so that John Key and Bill English could brag about being capable managers, who kept expenditure under control – as if balancing the books was an end in itself.

 

Meanwhile at Middlemore, the necessary investments in maintenance were being deferred – as they have has been in DHBs all around the country, in order to prop up the illusion of competence by a [National] government always far more interested in delivering another round of tax cuts, if it possibly could. It didn’t want to hear bad news. Its managers in public health heard that, and obeyed orders.

 

http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/04/gordon-campbell-on-middlemore-hospital-as-a-symptom-of-neglect/

 

I also want to wade in on this:

 

Buildings built around that time leaked. There's a massive apartment complex in Parnell that was found to be leaky in 2008; work started fixing them last year. That's nine years later. The CMDBH issues and court cases were only brought to light in 2012. The court case was only settled in 2017. 

 

CMDHB posted a surplus in 2007/2008; that's BEFORE National came in. Tell me, do you think CMDHB was awash with cash, everything was tickety boo and that suddenly changed as soon as National was elected?

 

Or perhaps there has been a pattern of repeated underfunding of the health system over successive Labour and National Governments and we're suddenly hearing about it now because it's polticially convenient to the party that currently gets to set the agenda? 


654 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1991126 7-Apr-2018 16:21
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Geektastic:

 

Personally I never found much to recommend Roosevelt myself. I can't see any reason to provide anything to those who have too little. Survival of the fittest usually wins out in any animal or human society and the fact that all this economic attempt to circumvent that never actually succeeds in reality is the result.

 

Also, suggesting that one badly maintained hospital is some sort of archetypical exemplar of the preceding 9 years of government is ludicrous. Our local hospital is clean, well maintained and remarkably efficient. Wellington gained a new hospital. I might just as well cite those as exemplars of the excellence of the National government.

 

Local managers are responsible for organising maintenance of hospitals, not the people who sit in the Beehive.

 

 

 

 

Local managers cant be held responsible for failed maintenance when they're not given the funding to organise maintenance of hospitals.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/93219807/capital--coast-dhbs-debt-hole-deepens-as-boss-admits-20-years-of-deficits

 

It's not just one hospital.

 

Dunedin Hospital is going to cost a billion to rebuild.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/95949112

 

Canterbury DHB:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/92342784/canterbury-district-health-board-budget-deficit-among-the-worst

 

District health boards are showing signs of financial pressure and some are neglecting spending on repairs and maintenance to try balance their books, a new stock-take by Treasury has found.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11851586

 

 

 

I think we might've found Steven Joyce's $11.7 billion hole. It looks like it was in the consistently underfunded health budgets of the last National Government. With rot, mould and sewage in the walls at Middlemore Hospital, asbestos in the maternity unit, faulty power supplies and God knows what else, the National Party has some serious questions to answer.

 

The one at the top of my mind is this: How the hell could they have been considering tax cuts when the health system was in such a dire state? Allowing the health system to literally moulder and ooze while offering tax cuts in an election lolly scramble is certainly not a good look. The party says on its website that it, "aspires to a New Zealand where all New Zealanders can flourish". Perhaps it should come with the disclaimer "unless those New Zealanders are sick", because the only thing flourishing at Middlemore seems to be the fungal spores.

 

I find the situation at Middlemore outrageous. As a New Zealander, I've always been proud of our health system. It's a testament to our spirit as a nation that we care for those who are sick and injured free of charge. It's just part of who we are. Failing to appropriately invest in health means that New Zealanders suffer. No Kiwi should ever have to go into a New Zealand hospital and wonder whether there's raw sewage leaking into the walls.

 

What kind of Third World outfit are we running? If the situation is this bad at Middlemore, what's it like elsewhere? Are our other hospitals plagued by similar issues? Have patients around the country been put at risk because the "strong economic managers" in the National Party decided to cut costs and cut corners?

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12026497


 
 
 
 


654 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1991130 7-Apr-2018 16:24
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GV27:

 

MaxLV:

 

Week by week, the sheer scale of the neglect to crucial social infrastructure by the Key/English government becomes apparent – and with it the size (and expense) of the problems they’ve left behind, for the Ardern government to somehow address. The mouldering walls and the decaying electricity and sewage systems at Middlemore Hospital serve as a perfect symbol of the dilapidation that’s been fostered by pressure to meet the political goals of budgetary constraint. All of it done so that John Key and Bill English could brag about being capable managers, who kept expenditure under control – as if balancing the books was an end in itself.

 

Meanwhile at Middlemore, the necessary investments in maintenance were being deferred – as they have has been in DHBs all around the country, in order to prop up the illusion of competence by a [National] government always far more interested in delivering another round of tax cuts, if it possibly could. It didn’t want to hear bad news. Its managers in public health heard that, and obeyed orders.

 

http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/04/gordon-campbell-on-middlemore-hospital-as-a-symptom-of-neglect/

 

I also want to wade in on this:

 

Buildings built around that time leaked. There's a massive apartment complex in Parnell that was found to be leaky in 2008; work started fixing them last year. That's nine years later. The CMDBH issues and court cases were only brought to light in 2012. The court case was only settled in 2017. 

 

CMDHB posted a surplus in 2007/2008; that's BEFORE National came in. Tell me, do you think CMDHB was awash with cash, everything was tickety boo and that suddenly changed as soon as National was elected?

 

Or perhaps there has been a pattern of repeated underfunding of the health system over successive Labour and National Governments and we're suddenly hearing about it now because it's polticially convenient to the party that currently gets to set the agenda? 

 

 

 

 

Maybe you should read this:

 

I was embarrassed and outraged by the news about the state of the hospital where I work, writes Dr David Galler – for this systematic betrayal of the very people we are here to serve and of the staff that works so hard to help them. And it goes to the fundamental question about what we choose to value

 

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-04-2018/the-toxic-mould-and-rot-of-middlemore-is-the-legacy-of-a-crisis-in-values/


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  # 1991142 7-Apr-2018 16:49
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MaxLV:

 

Maybe you should read this:

 

I was embarrassed and outraged by the news about the state of the hospital where I work, writes Dr David Galler – for this systematic betrayal of the very people we are here to serve and of the staff that works so hard to help them. And it goes to the fundamental question about what we choose to value

 

https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/03-04-2018/the-toxic-mould-and-rot-of-middlemore-is-the-legacy-of-a-crisis-in-values/

 

Funnily enough, I did read that piece when putting my post together. Literally every problem described was happening prior to National getting elected but you'd think John Key had invented them personally.

 

It seemed determined to tie several unrelated things together and managed to only convince me that buildings built in 2016 are usually better than those built after 2000. So many Spinoff pieces seem to be a cause of jamming several possibly related social issues together and tying them together using rage against the machine, but only the machines that are painted a colour you don't like. 


gzt

11035 posts

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  # 1991148 7-Apr-2018 17:09
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@MaxLV sometimes it's unclear what you are saying vs what you are quoting. Give the quote tags a go. It's easy enough and wins nerd points. Feel free to create a post in this forum for random bbcode practice. I've done that several times for various reasons the mods don't mind.

517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1991271 7-Apr-2018 21:20
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MaxLV;
...asbestos in the maternity unit...


Just a small point, but you have posted about it several times. Asbestos doesn't just happen. It's not a political problem. It gets discovered and then it gets removed. Asbestos isn't an indication of a lack of maintenance, its nothing other than an indication of the age of the building.

Just thought I'd point that out in passing

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  # 1991274 7-Apr-2018 21:24
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rjt123:
MaxLV;
...asbestos in the maternity unit...


Just a small point, but you have posted about it several times. Asbestos doesn't just happen. It's not a political problem. It gets discovered and then it gets removed. Asbestos isn't an indication of a lack of maintenance, its nothing other than an indication of the age of the building.

Just thought I'd point that out in passing

 

If National were trying to cover up asbestos, they weren't trying very hard, given that CMDHB explicitly states this in their annual reports:

 

 

 


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  # 1991278 7-Apr-2018 21:32
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Just for the record, I'm not denying there is a problem with the middle more hospital, but I thought it might be timely to post a bit of data on DHB funding over the last 10 years or so.



Where has all the money gone? Good question. I can't say as I haven't looked into it in depth, but DHB's can't claim to have had funding cut overall. Was there an improvement in other statistics?

Edit: the picture above shows funding in $ billions, not a s a % of gdp

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  # 1991301 7-Apr-2018 22:53
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MaxLV:

 

Geektastic:

 

Personally I never found much to recommend Roosevelt myself. I can't see any reason to provide anything to those who have too little. Survival of the fittest usually wins out in any animal or human society and the fact that all this economic attempt to circumvent that never actually succeeds in reality is the result.

 

Also, suggesting that one badly maintained hospital is some sort of archetypical exemplar of the preceding 9 years of government is ludicrous. Our local hospital is clean, well maintained and remarkably efficient. Wellington gained a new hospital. I might just as well cite those as exemplars of the excellence of the National government.

 

Local managers are responsible for organising maintenance of hospitals, not the people who sit in the Beehive.

 

 

 

 

Local managers cant be held responsible for failed maintenance when they're not given the funding to organise maintenance of hospitals.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/93219807/capital--coast-dhbs-debt-hole-deepens-as-boss-admits-20-years-of-deficits

 

It's not just one hospital.

 

Dunedin Hospital is going to cost a billion to rebuild.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/95949112

 

Canterbury DHB:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/92342784/canterbury-district-health-board-budget-deficit-among-the-worst

 

District health boards are showing signs of financial pressure and some are neglecting spending on repairs and maintenance to try balance their books, a new stock-take by Treasury has found.

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11851586

 

 

 

I think we might've found Steven Joyce's $11.7 billion hole. It looks like it was in the consistently underfunded health budgets of the last National Government. With rot, mould and sewage in the walls at Middlemore Hospital, asbestos in the maternity unit, faulty power supplies and God knows what else, the National Party has some serious questions to answer.

 

The one at the top of my mind is this: How the hell could they have been considering tax cuts when the health system was in such a dire state? Allowing the health system to literally moulder and ooze while offering tax cuts in an election lolly scramble is certainly not a good look. The party says on its website that it, "aspires to a New Zealand where all New Zealanders can flourish". Perhaps it should come with the disclaimer "unless those New Zealanders are sick", because the only thing flourishing at Middlemore seems to be the fungal spores.

 

I find the situation at Middlemore outrageous. As a New Zealander, I've always been proud of our health system. It's a testament to our spirit as a nation that we care for those who are sick and injured free of charge. It's just part of who we are. Failing to appropriately invest in health means that New Zealanders suffer. No Kiwi should ever have to go into a New Zealand hospital and wonder whether there's raw sewage leaking into the walls.

 

What kind of Third World outfit are we running? If the situation is this bad at Middlemore, what's it like elsewhere? Are our other hospitals plagued by similar issues? Have patients around the country been put at risk because the "strong economic managers" in the National Party decided to cut costs and cut corners?

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12026497

 

 

 

 

The health service is not the be all and end all. Health is an increasingly expensive business. You want more money? Increase the population of taxpayers and grow the economy. You cannot have a situation like this:

 

 

 

"More than one in three households are contributing nothing to New Zealand's tax take.

 

A table from Finance Minister Bill English's office shows 663,000 households - or 40 per cent - receive more in tax credits and other benefits than they pay in tax. Thousands more are neutral contributors, or are close to it."

 

 

 

(That quote is from 2016 so the figures won't be accurate but no doubt the general principle is)

 

 

 

and still expect to have a huge pile of cash for investing in everything. I suggest that if people wish to have a Gold Standard health service (and it's a reasonable aim) then they need to be prepared to pay for it somehow and, apparently, 40% or so of them currently are not doing so.






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  # 1991313 7-Apr-2018 23:57

Geektastic:

 

The health service is not the be all and end all. Health is an increasingly expensive business. You want more money? Increase the population of taxpayers and grow the economy. You cannot have a situation like this:

 

 

 

"More than one in three households are contributing nothing to New Zealand's tax take.

 

A table from Finance Minister Bill English's office shows 663,000 households - or 40 per cent - receive more in tax credits and other benefits than they pay in tax. Thousands more are neutral contributors, or are close to it."

 

 

 

(That quote is from 2016 so the figures won't be accurate but no doubt the general principle is)

 

 

 

and still expect to have a huge pile of cash for investing in everything. I suggest that if people wish to have a Gold Standard health service (and it's a reasonable aim) then they need to be prepared to pay for it somehow and, apparently, 40% or so of them currently are not doing so.

 

 

And this is only going to get worse as the population ages, and more people are able to get the pension. But National under John Key wasn't interested in any discussion on raising the pension age. Although my understanding is that Labour is not interested either. (Happy to be corrected on this if the JA Labour government actually does want to raise the pension age).






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