Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#2002929 26-Apr-2018 16:38

Shane Jones worries me and is the weakest link in the coalition. The coalition would be well served by reviewing his suitability for a ministerial role.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/103397718/shane-jones-call-for-more-ministerial-influence-worries-public-sector-union

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MikeB4

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#2002930 26-Apr-2018 16:40

Rikkitic:

I am against the punishment mentality that has permeated WINZ, as evidenced by the lady who had her benefit cut off for going on a Tinder date. People receiving a benefit for any reason deserve to be treated with respect. They are not criminals or bludgers unless shown to be so. But they should also carry their own weight to the extent they are able. If we could ever get a government that would spend money in the right places, and I include National governments in this, then things might finally improve.

What evidence do you have that "punishment mentality that has permeated WINZ," ?

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#2002932 26-Apr-2018 16:42

MikeB4:

Shane Jones worries me and is the weakest link in the coalition. The coalition would be well served by reviewing his suitability for a ministerial role.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/103397718/shane-jones-call-for-more-ministerial-influence-worries-public-sector-union

I was actually going to post something similar. He is described by people I know that have worked with him as reasonably smart but lazy.

I saw another one about how hard it is to spend a Billion dollars, without huge waste and horrible implemented plans. No shortage of people with hands out, just judging if these things are worthwhile use of tax payer money.

Rikkitic

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#2002965 26-Apr-2018 17:06

MikeB4:

What evidence do you have that "punishment mentality that has permeated WINZ," ?

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/pm-welfare-system-overhaul-imminent/

This is not the only thing I have seen but it is the only one I have at hand. If you want to know more you will have to look it up yourself.

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MikeB4

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#2002968 26-Apr-2018 17:12

Rikkitic:

MikeB4:

What evidence do you have that ?

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/pm-welfare-system-overhaul-imminent/

This is not the only thing I have seen but it is the only one I have at hand. If you want to know more you will have to look it up yourself.

That's not evidence of "punishment mentality that has permeated WINZ," it's a political agenda. What MSD staff do is required by law and official policy approved by the Minister. There is not a punishment mentality. The front line staff and management are good people doing a very hard job dealing with folks dealing with very hard times. The vast majority are compassionate caring people and are there to help.

GV27

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#2003049 26-Apr-2018 18:31

I'm quite happy with the ATAP 2 announcement. This is a significant catch-up in terms of infrastructure Auckland already needs. National will have think very carefully how they oppose this; Aucklanders are fed up with being taken for granted.

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#2003070 26-Apr-2018 19:08

MikeB4:

..... The front line staff and management are good people doing a very hard job dealing with folks dealing with very hard times. The vast majority are compassionate caring people and are there to help.

......... As long as the beneficiary expects no more than this. But we/they do. Most expect much more than this as a matter of "over exaggerated entitlement". And that is where the government of the day (and yesterday) gets caught out.

bmt

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#2003082 26-Apr-2018 19:35

Rikkitic:

'New Zealand's child poverty, inadequate housing, incarceration and violence has "shocked" a United Nations committee reviewing the country's human rights record.

Members of a committee overseeing the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) were last month incredulous at some of New Zealand's worst statistics, chief human rights commissioner David Rutherford said.'

This is just one of the reasons why I cannot see another National-led government as a viable alternative to the current one. However bad this government may or may not turn out to be, it is not the one that spent the last nine years allowing things to reach this state.

Come on Rikkitic, the UN has zero credibility when it comes to this sort of thing. As someone alluded to earlier when you have a country like Saudi Arabia passing judgement as a member of the women's rights commission and human rights council it is hard to take anything the UN says seriously. If New Zealand shocks them you would have to wonder how many countries wouldn't shock them (would hazard a guess you could count with your fingers).

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#2003102 26-Apr-2018 20:14

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

MikeB4:

What evidence do you have that ?

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/pm-welfare-system-overhaul-imminent/

This is not the only thing I have seen but it is the only one I have at hand. If you want to know more you will have to look it up yourself.

That's not evidence of "punishment mentality that has permeated WINZ," it's a political agenda. What MSD staff do is required by law and official policy approved by the Minister. There is not a punishment mentality. The front line staff and management are good people doing a very hard job dealing with folks dealing with very hard times. The vast majority are compassionate caring people and are there to help.

This varies from office to office. The Paraparaumu office needs a rocket imo. But generally it is the legislation that is at fault and outdated. Staff can only deal according to what they can.

Pumpedd

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#2003104 26-Apr-2018 20:17

bmt:

Rikkitic:

'New Zealand's child poverty, inadequate housing, incarceration and violence has "shocked" a United Nations committee reviewing the country's human rights record.

Members of a committee overseeing the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR) were last month incredulous at some of New Zealand's worst statistics, chief human rights commissioner David Rutherford said.'

This is just one of the reasons why I cannot see another National-led government as a viable alternative to the current one. However bad this government may or may not turn out to be, it is not the one that spent the last nine years allowing things to reach this state.

Come on Rikkitic, the UN has zero credibility when it comes to this sort of thing. As someone alluded to earlier when you have a country like Saudi Arabia passing judgement as a member of the women's rights commission and human rights council it is hard to take anything the UN says seriously. If New Zealand shocks them you would have to wonder how many countries wouldn't shock them (would hazard a guess you could count with your fingers).

UN is an outdated monstrosity. We have so many wars going on now including the use of chemical weapons and the UN is useless due to veto powers and bureaucracy. It is a loser statement from any Government to use the UN like this one does. UN needs to be MASSIVELY modernised, but that will never happen due to veto. It is quite sad as we really need a strong UN.

Rikkitic

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#2003115 26-Apr-2018 20:34

No-one is saying anything what what the UN said, just who said it. That is a fake argument. We have had sports stars come out against domestic abuse, who have later been revealed to be abusers themselves. That doesn't make what they said about abuse untrue.

The UN is a whole different discussion, much too big to start on here. It has enormous failings but also does some good. Writing it off would be a mistake.

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Geektastic

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#2003165 26-Apr-2018 22:56

MikeAqua:
Rikkitic:

That is because it has been done badly, not because it is a bad idea.

As biologist I look at niche theory.

If you provide welfare, you create a niche. If you create a niche, someone will fill it.

I have read that Ta Apirana Ngata had grave concerns about the potential for welfare dependency among Maori. He has been proven correct. Possibly because welfare provided successive govts an alternative to tackling the real issues. For example providing unemployment benefits instead of employment.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have welfare, we clearly need it. But we should acknowledge that a consequence of having it is a minimum level of dependency.

Welfare also comes with political problems.

If you do stop paying, you must ultimately be prepared to allow some people to starve or freeze to death to motivate the others into realising that it won't go on forever and not working has unpleasant consequences.

Like hospitals running out of money and closing until next FY, no politician is going to do this.

Providing employment for people who do not want to work is likely to prove a manager's worst nightmare as well.

There needs to be a step change in aspirations in NZ. No one bright enough to be a doctor should end up felling timber, for example. It's a waste of human capital.

There is definitely a known and widely commented on (in articles etc) anti-intellectual streak that needs to be got rid of. Children should idolise scientists, surgeons, engineers, programmers and so on, not dumb schmucks who chase balls round fields.

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#2003167 26-Apr-2018 23:01

It's not dumb to get paid doing something you love. When that's over there are a lot of career opportunities that come from it.

networkn

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#2003169 26-Apr-2018 23:08

Geektastic:

Welfare also comes with political problems.

If you do stop paying, you must ultimately be prepared to allow some people to starve or freeze to death to motivate the others into realising that it won't go on forever and not working has unpleasant consequences.

Like hospitals running out of money and closing until next FY, no politician is going to do this.

Providing employment for people who do not want to work is likely to prove a manager's worst nightmare as well.

There needs to be a step change in aspirations in NZ. No one bright enough to be a doctor should end up felling timber, for example. It's a waste of human capital.

There is definitely a known and widely commented on (in articles etc) anti-intellectual streak that needs to be got rid of. Children should idolise scientists, surgeons, engineers, programmers and so on, not dumb schmucks who chase balls round fields.

Heh, I couldn't agree with some of these sentiments. Idolize whomever helps you get up in the morning and be the best you can be, even if that is someone who chases a ball for a living.

You can't make smart people be doctors or scientists. I have a nephew, smartest kid I know. Saw a 3D printer and decided he wanted one, can't afford one, spends a bit of time examining one he likes, goes and buys parts cheaply and makes one, no schematic or experience. Works great. Smokes dope, expelled from school for peddling cigarettes and grows dope on an australian commune. He's happy. I can't understand it, but whatcha gonna do?

rjt123

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#2003170 26-Apr-2018 23:35

Geektastic:
Children should idolise scientists, surgeons, engineers, programmers and so on, not dumb schmucks who chase balls round fields.

Not entirely. They can idolize anyone they like, but they should be taught to idolize them for their success, their discipline and the hard work it took them to get there. The same underlying principles of success are the same for anyone who has reached the pinnacle of their field, be it science or sport.

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