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  Reply # 1896953 7-Nov-2017 16:38
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Rikkitic:

 

You two sure are having a field day. I am reminded of the two old gents commenting on the Muppets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am glad you see them as muppets too :) I knew you'd come to your senses sooner or later. :)

 

 


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  Reply # 1896961 7-Nov-2017 16:43
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Rikkitic:

 

You two sure are having a field day. I am reminded of the two old gents commenting on the Muppets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not a field day. I am actually saddened by what took place. It shows they need to get their act together..and stop blaming National for the days fiasco.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1896963 7-Nov-2017 16:46
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Realistic positive suggestions on how they could do it better might be more useful than constant negative carping. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1896989 7-Nov-2017 16:55
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Rikkitic:

 

Realistic positive suggestions on how they could do it better might be more useful than constant negative carping. 

 

 

 

 

Not my job to tell them how to do it better...jeez dude. I want a stable government so NZ Inc can continue to grow and flourish as well as look after those that cannot look after themselves. These guys can't even count and then tell lies to media about what happened. Seemed quite a few didnt even go to swearing in ceremony so couldnt have voted anyway. 

 

Remember this is the highest court in the land.


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  Reply # 1897018 7-Nov-2017 17:55
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networkn:

tdgeek:


networkn:


Labour are showing how long its been since they were in power, are looking pretty disorganized. Reports from Parliment make them look pretty amateurish.


Trevor Mallard sitting in the speaker's seat makes me both ill and wildly uncomfortable. I am not sure how they could have picked a worse person.



You haven't said why?


What I read was that its just opening of Parliament or swearing in MP's. A couple are away at APEC, so they could not vote in Mallard as Speaker as Bridges raised that. National blocked it, then they cut a deal. Stupid stuff. First Bill said he had no issues with Mallard, and the article I read stated that they will do this even knowing there is no gain. Now, if it was a law, and one crossed the bench and Nats can block it, do it, thats democracy, but as stated, this is just a stunt. If sending two MP's to APEC is disorganised, then maybe they should forget APEC and vote in Mallard. IMO a bit amateurish from National.  They have a large Opposition that's no secret, and this is how they will use it? Use it for real life not a swearing in ceremony


 



I think you need to check the story again. Labour had the numbers and didn't know they did. 




They had the numbers but wanted him elected unopposed. National said they had an assumed majority. Not sure how a majority is only assumed. Also unsure why it matters if he is unopposed rather than voted in though.

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  Reply # 1897315 8-Nov-2017 08:47
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The likelihood of the Nat's actually pulling off the coup was slim, but the principle of it was they challenged the Government on numbers & their majority, which is a fundamental principle of how government works. It wasn't going to ever have any long-term impact, but it shows that they are indeed a large opposition force and nobody had really taken their threats seriously. but there's two points to mention:

 

Firstly, when labour-NZF joined in their coalition the Labour supporters were gloating over anyone who complained the largest party had been sidestepped. They said "that's how MMP works, get over it, you lost..." or words to that effect. What those same people also need to recognise is that, yes, Labour's in Government, but it's on the principle of a majority & that majority is slim. So to say it was all just political, desparate, posturing, etc,... may be true, but if Labour claims to have the majority they need to prove it in the house, because that's what counts, there's no other option but to say yes, National had them at ransom for a moment. If they were confident of winning they would have ignored National, they weren't confident so how are we supposed to have confidence in them?

 

Secondly, people are making ridiculous comments about National just causing disruption and they should be working for the good of NZ. However, government is actually about politics, if you didn't already realise... and if the National party have been voted in strongly based on their policies at the election, then for them to turn around and support labour's policies (which they (and I) don't believe are actually beneficial to NZ) would be a snub to their voter base. Furthermore, do do the best for NZ in some situations will be to oppose some of labour's proposed changes, especially around workplace relations. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but parliament has never been a place for cooperative agreement, and labour was no example of that in the last nine years, they just never had the numbers to be an effective opposition


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  Reply # 1897318 8-Nov-2017 08:55
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Seems a very bad week for JAcinda

 

  • failure to achieve anything on Australia other than give Aussie students in NZ free tertiary 
  • failure to count on first day in Parliament
  • and sadly the loss of Paddles

Guess bad luck comes in threes Jacinda...must look up now.


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  Reply # 1897325 8-Nov-2017 09:09
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rjt123:

 

The likelihood of the Nat's actually pulling off the coup was slim, but the principle of it was they challenged the Government on numbers & their majority, which is a fundamental principle of how government works. It wasn't going to ever have any long-term impact, but it shows that they are indeed a large opposition force and nobody had really taken their threats seriously. but there's two points to mention:

 

Firstly, when labour-NZF joined in their coalition the Labour supporters were gloating over anyone who complained the largest party had been sidestepped. They said "that's how MMP works, get over it, you lost..." or words to that effect. What those same people also need to recognise is that, yes, Labour's in Government, but it's on the principle of a majority & that majority is slim. So to say it was all just political, desparate, posturing, etc,... may be true, but if Labour claims to have the majority they need to prove it in the house, because that's what counts, there's no other option but to say yes, National had them at ransom for a moment. If they were confident of winning they would have ignored National, they weren't confident so how are we supposed to have confidence in them?

 

Secondly, people are making ridiculous comments about National just causing disruption and they should be working for the good of NZ. However, government is actually about politics, if you didn't already realise... and if the National party have been voted in strongly based on their policies at the election, then for them to turn around and support labour's policies (which they (and I) don't believe are actually beneficial to NZ) would be a snub to their voter base. Furthermore, do do the best for NZ in some situations will be to oppose some of labour's proposed changes, especially around workplace relations. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but parliament has never been a place for cooperative agreement, and labour was no example of that in the last nine years, they just never had the numbers to be an effective opposition

 

 

Bubble not burst but thats rubbish. They have a majority, National doesnt, end of story. prove it in the House? Yesterday wasn't "in the House" they werent losing a vote for a bill, they werent losing a vote for the Speaker, she wanted an unopposed Speaker, so she compromised and got that.

 

When yesterday happens for all the bills that get voted on and they cannot pass them, then get back to me.

 

BTW, numbers doesn't make an Opposition effective, as they will always lose the vote as they are a minority, subject to any conscience issue. What makes an Opposition effective is true and real opposing, not what Ive seen from National so far, Joyce continues to whine, but give no detail. Just as he did in the campaign. Justified criticism of JA was that her campaign had little detail, I agree. Joyce is the same, and worse. $75 bottles of wine? Thats BS and what another MP tweeted, so when we talk about crap from Labour, we need to look around. The Opposition needs to do its job for NZ, not play silly games and make things up as has happened in the election. Labour needs to prove itself, it may not. National may harm itself it it plays these games of no detail accusations and so on, so plenty to unfold yet


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  Reply # 1897328 8-Nov-2017 09:19
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Pumpedd:

 

Seems a very bad week for JAcinda

 

  • failure to achieve anything on Australia other than give Aussie students in NZ free tertiary 
  • failure to count on first day in Parliament
  • and sadly the loss of Paddles

Guess bad luck comes in threes Jacinda...must look up now.

 

 

What failure to count? They wanted an unopposed Speaker, Nats wont play ball, so they compromised and avoided the vote, to get the unopposed speaker


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  Reply # 1897331 8-Nov-2017 09:25
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tdgeek:

 

Pumpedd:

 

Seems a very bad week for JAcinda

 

  • failure to achieve anything on Australia other than give Aussie students in NZ free tertiary 
  • failure to count on first day in Parliament
  • and sadly the loss of Paddles

Guess bad luck comes in threes Jacinda...must look up now.

 

 

What failure to count? They wanted an unopposed Speaker, Nats wont play ball, so they compromised and avoided the vote, to get the unopposed speaker

 

 

That's incorrect. Labour had the numbers to do it without National, but National suggested they didn't and suggested they be allowed more committee seats, which Labour agreed to, because they *thought* they didn't have the numbers.

 

 


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  Reply # 1897333 8-Nov-2017 09:35
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

BTW, numbers doesn't make an Opposition effective, as they will always lose the vote as they are a minority, subject to any conscience issue. What makes an Opposition effective is true and real opposing, not what Ive seen from National so far, Joyce continues to whine, but give no detail. Just as he did in the campaign. Justified criticism of JA was that her campaign had little detail, I agree. Joyce is the same, and worse. $75 bottles of wine? Thats BS and what another MP tweeted, so when we talk about crap from Labour, we need to look around. The Opposition needs to do its job for NZ, not play silly games and make things up as has happened in the election. Labour needs to prove itself, it may not. National may harm itself it it plays these games of no detail accusations and so on, so plenty to unfold yet

 

 

That's all correct.  However...  My view of yesterday's tactic by National was that it was a well judged and supremely well executed stunt that will (on balance) provide a stronger government for NZ.  From (my impression of) National's perspective it would have been scored as follows:

 

Cons:

 

Momentarily increased public perception of playing games and being disruptive.

 

Pros:   

 

Ensures that almost all National MPs are contributing to the legislative process for the next 3yrs.  (Rather than having a bunch of back-benchers taking a 150k salary and having no responsibilities)

 

Puts the government on-notice that they need to bring their A-game and that there will be careful scrutiny of their every move

 

Added Bonus:

 

Embarrassment for the Coalition, making them look amateur and disorganised

 

 

 

On balance, a no-brainer decision for any competent politician.  (And NZ will probably be better off because of it if it does indeed increase the focus and effectiveness of the coalition) 

 

 


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  Reply # 1897335 8-Nov-2017 09:40
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6FIEND:

 

 

 

On balance, a no-brainer decision for any competent politician.  (And NZ will probably be better off because of it if it does indeed increase the focus and effectiveness of the coalition) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

100% agree with this in particular (though the entire post was correct in my view). NZ benefits from strong opposition, this seems to escape most people I think. 

 

National needs to focus on providing strong arguments backed by facts and present them in an easy to understand format, to ensure that what happens in NZ over the next 3 years, is understood for it's potential benefits *and* detriment.

 

 


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  Reply # 1897336 8-Nov-2017 09:42
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networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

Pumpedd:

 

Seems a very bad week for JAcinda

 

  • failure to achieve anything on Australia other than give Aussie students in NZ free tertiary 
  • failure to count on first day in Parliament
  • and sadly the loss of Paddles

Guess bad luck comes in threes Jacinda...must look up now.

 

 

What failure to count? They wanted an unopposed Speaker, Nats wont play ball, so they compromised and avoided the vote, to get the unopposed speaker

 

 

That's incorrect. Labour had the numbers to do it without National, but National suggested they didn't and suggested they be allowed more committee seats, which Labour agreed to, because they *thought* they didn't have the numbers.

 

 

 

 

JA was adamant they wanted an unopposed speaker. yes they had a couple missing and a couple not yet sworn in but they stated they had the numbewrs, unless your suggesting they lied? National didnt say they had the number they said they had an assumed majority. National wanted more3e seats in select committees so they forced a vote so it would not be an unopposed Speaker, so she compromised and got what she wants and Nats got what they wanted. Or if you wanted examples of Nats not being able to count or being immature, or lying to the public, feel free to ask. If people want to decide on a criticism, best to check it doesnt apply with National as well, as it does. Could Labs have planned and managed yesterday better? Yes. 


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  Reply # 1897342 8-Nov-2017 09:48
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JA was adamant they wanted an unopposed speaker. yes they had a couple missing and a couple not yet sworn in but they stated they had the numbewrs, unless your suggesting they lied? National didnt say they had the number they said they had an assumed majority. National wanted more3e seats in select committees so they forced a vote so it would not be an unopposed Speaker, so she compromised and got what she wants and Nats got what they wanted. Or if you wanted examples of Nats not being able to count or being immature, or lying to the public, feel free to ask. If people want to decide on a criticism, best to check it doesnt apply with National as well, as it does. Could Labs have planned and managed yesterday better? Yes. 

 

 

 

 

I've read this three times and still don't understand what you are saying. Your account of the story is at odds with what the media have reported. 

 

If Labour had what they needed, why would they capitulate on the select committee seats ? Makes no sense. 

 

 

 

 


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