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517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 2020744 22-May-2018 21:28
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MikeB4:

rjt123:
Geektastic:
MikeB4: We have a tectonic plate subduction zone right through one island and right past another. Having nuclear power plants would be absolute stupidity.


They manage it in Japan.


Well sometimes...

But we comfortably build and live in 50 story skyscrapers in Wellington. A nuclear power plant isn't that fragile that they can't be built to withstand earthquakes.

But NZ was never considering building a nuclear power plant. The ban didn't prevent anything... Hence it can just be passed off as virtue signalling.


 


There are no 50 story buildings in Wellington. Virtue signally? no  Tell me something what would happen to NZ primary source of income if we were to have a nuclear accident or incident? Doe you really believe overseas markets would slightly interested in our primary products ? no they would not.



🙄 No they're probably not 50 stories, but over 100m so that's tall enough to require pretty serious engineering for a high risk earthquake zone. It can be done.

Maybe we should have banned mycoplasma bovis if we're worried about protecting our primary industries. The reality is the nuclear ban hasn't protected us from any genuine risks, just a hypothetical risk from a non-existent threat of never-contemplated nuclear power station.

Would an occasional aircraft carrier calling into the Wellington harbor be a problem to our dairy exports?. No.

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  # 2020747 22-May-2018 21:30
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The risk is not hypothetical it is very real. But I think you are mixing nuclear power generation and nuclear weapons /propulsion 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 2020758 22-May-2018 21:45
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MikeB4:

The risk is not hypothetical it is very real.


All risk is real, or it's not risk. Let's not inflate the risk level beyond what it is though: the risk is low, the stakes are high.


But I think you are mixing nuclear power generation and nuclear weapons /propulsion 



The ban covered both

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  # 2020761 22-May-2018 21:50
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rjt123:
MikeB4:

 

The risk is not hypothetical it is very real.


All risk is real, or it's not risk. Let's not inflate the risk level beyond what it is though: the risk is low, the stakes are high.


But I think you are mixing nuclear power generation and nuclear weapons /propulsion 

 



The ban covered both

 

 

 

the ban covers weapons and propulsion 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 2020766 22-May-2018 22:00
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MikeB4:

the ban covers weapons and propulsion 



Probably, doesn't really worry me tbh, because it hasn't really changed anything for NZ.

To get back to the topic, jacinda's 'nuclear free' moment is not really going to change anything for NZ either.

History repeats itself...

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  # 2020803 22-May-2018 22:49
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Geektastic: The Germans are scaling down due to political whiners.

The French are building more, so they can sell power to the Germans...!

 

Not sure where you get that from. German nuclear is shutting down solely due to the Fukushima disaster, not political whiners

 

The Grafenrheinfeld Nuclear Power Plant in Germany. Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition announced on 30 May 2011, that Germany's 17 nuclear power stations will be shut down by 2022, in a policy reversal following Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster.

 

 


gzt

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  # 2020808 22-May-2018 23:00
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rjt123:
MikeB4:

the ban covers weapons and propulsion 



Probably, doesn't really worry me tbh, because it hasn't really changed anything for NZ.

To get back to the topic, jacinda's 'nuclear free' moment is not really going to change anything for NZ either.

History repeats itself...

Actually with the comparison you've managed to convince me at least that it could be quite influential.

I also hope it spurs the investment we need in the required technologies and changes.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2020811 22-May-2018 23:09
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gzt:
rjt123:
MikeB4:

 

the ban covers weapons and propulsion 

 



Probably, doesn't really worry me tbh, because it hasn't really changed anything for NZ.

To get back to the topic, jacinda's 'nuclear free' moment is not really going to change anything for NZ either.

History repeats itself...

Actually with the comparison you've managed to convince me at least that it could be quite influential.

I also hope it spurs the investment we need in the required technologies and changes.

 

I do too, although his comparison was again flawed.

 

The nuclear ban was not designed to eliminate nuclear weapons or nuclear power, so it never failed. It was to denounce nuclear being blasted in our backyard. It cost us. We were excluded from many parts of ANZUS, and we didnt play the no Antarctic base in ChCh for you now card. We are above that. Two lost their lives when France bombed the Rainbow Warrior. But at least we stood on principle.

 

Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? No. But we will do that anyway. Principle. And it will help our environment here with less smoke/CO2 in the lower atmosphere, and it will help our balance of payments with less imports, and it will allow cheaper power for everyone. So, we win on principle and we win on economics. 

 

I'd call that a win


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  # 2020828 23-May-2018 02:18
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tdgeek:

 

gzt:
rjt123:
MikeB4:

 

the ban covers weapons and propulsion 

 



Probably, doesn't really worry me tbh, because it hasn't really changed anything for NZ.

To get back to the topic, jacinda's 'nuclear free' moment is not really going to change anything for NZ either.

History repeats itself...

Actually with the comparison you've managed to convince me at least that it could be quite influential.

I also hope it spurs the investment we need in the required technologies and changes.

 

I do too, although his comparison was again flawed.

 

The nuclear ban was not designed to eliminate nuclear weapons or nuclear power, so it never failed. It was to denounce nuclear being blasted in our backyard. It cost us. We were excluded from many parts of ANZUS, and we didnt play the no Antarctic base in ChCh for you now card. We are above that. Two lost their lives when France bombed the Rainbow Warrior. But at least we stood on principle.

 

Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? No. But we will do that anyway. Principle. And it will help our environment here with less smoke/CO2 in the lower atmosphere, and it will help our balance of payments with less imports, and it will allow cheaper power for everyone. So, we win on principle and we win on economics. 

 

I'd call that a win

 

 

 

 

Call it what you want...but it cost NZ the equivalent of billions in trade and delayed some trade deals.


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  # 2020860 23-May-2018 07:11
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Pumpedd:

 

 

 

 

 

Call it what you want...but it cost NZ the equivalent of billions in trade and delayed some trade deals.

 

 

 

 

care to back that with some facts?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 2020871 23-May-2018 07:34
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tdgeek:

 

The nuclear ban was not designed to eliminate nuclear weapons or nuclear power, so it never failed. It was to denounce nuclear being blasted in our backyard. It cost us.

 

"It cost us..." so do we pay any price for principle...? or just when it suits? 

 

Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? No. But we will do that anyway. Principle. And it will help our environment here with less smoke/CO2 in the lower atmosphere, and it will help our balance of payments with less imports, and it will allow cheaper power for everyone. So, we win on principle and we win on economics. 

 

I'd call that a win

 

 

And speaking of flawed arguments, banning oil and gas exploration doesn't help with either of the claims you made above. Great on principle, lacking in logic.


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  # 2020872 23-May-2018 07:43
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rjt123:

 

tdgeek:

 

The nuclear ban was not designed to eliminate nuclear weapons or nuclear power, so it never failed. It was to denounce nuclear being blasted in our backyard. It cost us.

 

"It cost us..." so do we pay any price for principle...? or just when it suits? 

 

Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? No. But we will do that anyway. Principle. And it will help our environment here with less smoke/CO2 in the lower atmosphere, and it will help our balance of payments with less imports, and it will allow cheaper power for everyone. So, we win on principle and we win on economics. 

 

I'd call that a win

 

 

And speaking of flawed arguments, banning oil and gas exploration doesn't help with either of the claims you made above. Great on principle, lacking in logic.

 

 

 

 

by your flawed notion  we should do nothing and if all nations follow suit and why shouldnt they as you say it's flawed then nothing gets done and future generations are screwed. it is ok you will be ok and will be able to live out a self centred life.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2020874 23-May-2018 07:47
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MikeB4:

 

Pumpedd:

 

 

 

 

 

Call it what you want...but it cost NZ the equivalent of billions in trade and delayed some trade deals.

 

 

 

 

care to back that with some facts?

 

 

I can do that

 

https://www.artsfaculty.auckland.ac.nz/special/nzfpra/docs/NuclearBan3.pdf

 

France placed sanctions on NZ exports after Rainbow Warrior, we then did the same. UN mediated, no issue

 

Trade with US mirrored Australia, no issue. Occasionally we increased a bit more than Aus, and on some downturns, we downturned less. There was no trade effect, even though that is the perception and backed up by the US

 

Trade deals, unsure, I doubt there were FTA-like trade deals back then, but the fact is, trade was unaffected. We took a stand, punched above our weight, were removed as an official US ally and excluded from ANZUS exercises, and probably other ANZUS functions

 

We stood on principle. backed by majority of Kiwis and all political parties


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 2020875 23-May-2018 07:48
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MikeB4

 

by your flawed notion  we should do nothing and if all nations follow suit and why shouldnt they as you say it's flawed then nothing gets done and future generations are screwed. it is ok you will be ok and will be able to live out a self centred life.

 

 

Wrong.

 

Nuclear ban: achieved nothing but gave us the warm fuzzies (Principle)

 

Oil & Gas exploration ban: Achieves nothing, but gives us the warm fuzzies.

 

The sad thing is a large portion of the nation were fooled into thinking this government cared about the environment. 


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  # 2020877 23-May-2018 07:53
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rjt123:

 

tdgeek:

 

The nuclear ban was not designed to eliminate nuclear weapons or nuclear power, so it never failed. It was to denounce nuclear being blasted in our backyard. It cost us.

 

"It cost us..." so do we pay any price for principle...? or just when it suits? 

 

Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? No. But we will do that anyway. Principle. And it will help our environment here with less smoke/CO2 in the lower atmosphere, and it will help our balance of payments with less imports, and it will allow cheaper power for everyone. So, we win on principle and we win on economics. 

 

I'd call that a win

 

 

And speaking of flawed arguments, banning oil and gas exploration doesn't help with either of the claims you made above. Great on principle, lacking in logic.

 

 

What did it cost us? It didnt cost us a "price", I assume you are seeking a dollar value, there wasnt one. We were removed as a US ally, we were excluded from ANZUS military exercises, thats the cost.

 

Perhaps explain why my claims are invalid, instead of just saying they are invalid. Im not sure where you take my claims as the effect of banning oil and gas exploration. I said "Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe?" Where does that imply that I am referring to oil and gas exploration? NZ efforts are to obtain 100% renewable energy


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