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  # 2020883 23-May-2018 08:00
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rjt123:

 

MikeB4

 

by your flawed notion  we should do nothing and if all nations follow suit and why shouldnt they as you say it's flawed then nothing gets done and future generations are screwed. it is ok you will be ok and will be able to live out a self centred life.

 

 

Wrong.

 

Nuclear ban: achieved nothing but gave us the warm fuzzies (Principle)

 

Oil & Gas exploration ban: Achieves nothing, but gives us the warm fuzzies.

 

The sad thing is a large portion of the nation were fooled into thinking this government cared about the environment. 

 

 

Ah I see, you have clarified your posts, fully understood now. I thought you were discussing Ardern's nuclear moment and relating that to the 1980's nuclear ban. The "nuclear moment" is about climate change, and climate change problems are supported by National and Labour But your real issue is solely political, so you only focus on one policy, that of oil and gas exploration permits, which is a Labour policy. Understood. Clearly you dont care about the environment, you just want to bag Labour. That's fine, but keep to the point, just dont talk about the nuclear ban or nuclear moment as they are different topics


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  # 2020923 23-May-2018 08:31
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tdgeek:

 

rjt123:

 

tdgeek:

 

The nuclear ban was not designed to eliminate nuclear weapons or nuclear power, so it never failed. It was to denounce nuclear being blasted in our backyard. It cost us.

 

"It cost us..." so do we pay any price for principle...? or just when it suits? 

 

Move forward to todays nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? No. But we will do that anyway. Principle. And it will help our environment here with less smoke/CO2 in the lower atmosphere, and it will help our balance of payments with less imports, and it will allow cheaper power for everyone. So, we win on principle and we win on economics. 

 

I'd call that a win

 

 

And speaking of flawed arguments, banning oil and gas exploration doesn't help with either of the claims you made above. Great on principle, lacking in logic.

 

 

What did it cost us? It didnt cost us a "price", I assume you are seeking a dollar value, there wasnt one. We were removed as a US ally, we were excluded from ANZUS military exercises, thats the cost. 

 

No I wasn't talking a dollar-value. The cost to NZ depends your/my inidividual prinicples. NZ valued the 'nuclear-free' title more than our ANZUS alliance. Personally I would take the opposite perspective. 

 

 

 

Perhaps explain why my claims are invalid, instead of just saying they are invalid. Im not sure where you take my claims as the effect of banning oil and gas exploration. I said "Move forward to today's nuclear moment, climate change. Will NZ's efforts fix the globe?" Where does that imply that I am referring to oil and gas exploration? NZ efforts are to obtain 100% renewable energy

 

 

Your claim was that power prices would go down. Given we are already between 80-90% renewable power sources and prices have shown no indication of going down, it's unlikely that going 100% is going to suddenly make it cheap...? Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? no, but then again we're big on talk and small on actions.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2020932 23-May-2018 08:47
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rjt123:

 

 

 

No I wasn't talking a dollar-value. The cost to NZ depends your/my inidividual prinicples. NZ valued the 'nuclear-free' title more than our ANZUS alliance. Personally I would take the opposite perspective. 

 

 

 

 

 

Your claim was that power prices would go down. Given we are already between 80-90% renewable power sources and prices have shown no indication of going down, it's unlikely that going 100% is going to suddenly make it cheap...? Will NZ's efforts fix the globe? no, but then again we're big on talk and small on actions.

 

 

I feel the principle of anti nuclear is greater than ANZUS.

 

Should NZ embark on a truly green policy and push towards 100% renewables well before 2050, that will be due to solar HW and PV expansion, residentially and at business premises and the expansion of EV's. Individual power bills, i.e. distributed power, will drop as we will be using a portion of self generation. Businesses can gain more as they are open for business during sun hours. EV's will reduce fuel cost for all of us. Better balance of payments from importing less oil will benefit the country. Hydro wont need to expand, it may well mothball a station or two.

 

NZ efforts wont fix the globe, that's correct.

 

Actions? In what way? The nuclear ban was 100% action. The current Govt and the last was committed to climate change policies, and to date neither has done anything significant. As this Govt has been in for only months, that can be accepted, but they need to draw some hard lines in the sand soon.

 

But of the fact that NZ wont fix the world so don't bother, that's a stand I don't accept. You may as well advise all global Govts not to bother, same thing


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  # 2020947 23-May-2018 09:23
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tdgeek:

 

Should NZ embark on a truly green policy and push towards 100% renewables well before 2050, that will be due to solar HW and PV expansion, residentially and at business premises and the expansion of EV's. Individual power bills, i.e. distributed power, will drop as we will be using a portion of self generation. Businesses can gain more as they are open for business during sun hours. EV's will reduce fuel cost for all of us. Better balance of payments from importing less oil will benefit the country. Hydro wont need to expand, it may well mothball a station or two.

 

NZ efforts wont fix the globe, that's correct.

 

Actions? In what way? The nuclear ban was 100% action. The current Govt and the last was committed to climate change policies, and to date neither has done anything significant. As this Govt has been in for only months, that can be accepted, but they need to draw some hard lines in the sand soon.

 

But of the fact that NZ wont fix the world so don't bother, that's a stand I don't accept. You may as well advise all global Govts not to bother, same thing

 

 

If solar becomes economically viable then it won't be hard to get mass installation fairly quickly, but until then, to claim power prices will drop is to make a significant assumption that that will somehow happen. Possible, but not exactly a given. I'll welcome lower power prices when they come, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

I'm glad you acknowledge neither government has done anything significant. For sure, this govt has only been in for six months, but i personally don't expect them to do anything either.

 

"But of the fact that NZ wont fix the world so don't bother, that's a stand I don't accept" no I don't really agree with that principle in any situation, but you asked the question, so I took the liberty of answering it.


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  # 2020963 23-May-2018 09:46
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rjt123:

 

 

 

If solar becomes economically viable then it won't be hard to get mass installation fairly quickly, but until then, to claim power prices will drop is to make a significant assumption that that will somehow happen. Possible, but not exactly a given. I'll welcome lower power prices when they come, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

 

 

In my context I stated power prices generically, not power company prices. I should have clarified that. I.e. my lower power company bill due to my own generation

 

Id love to know the relationship between annual national grid generation and one million homes with Solar HW and Solar PV, and all business premises that have Solar PV. How much that can relieve the lakes, as well as add to the distributed grid

 

 

 

 


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  # 2020966 23-May-2018 09:50

I'm not aware of any announcements of new renewable generation under Labour. Or any new policies to help get more renewable generation built. Which means that power prices will have to rise a lot. Before it becomes economically viable for enough renewable generation to be built to get us to 100% renewable power.

Solar power cannot get us there. As in 2016, NZ solar generation averaged out to only 6MW over the entire year. Yet the Huntly power station alone has over 1000MW of generation capacity. So a crazy amount of solar will be needed, just to get rid of 1 fossil fuel power station. Yet alone all of them. And you still have the problem of how to get power during night time. Sorry but solar power will only ever be a niche power source in NZ.

Getting to 100% renewable generation can only be done with large scale hydro and geothermal. But whenever someone wants to get some big hydro built, the local environmental groups oppose it. As those groups refuse to consider the reduction in carbon emissions that will occur by allowing new hydro generation to get built.





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  # 2020975 23-May-2018 10:03
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Aredwood: I'm not aware of any announcements of new renewable generation under Labour. Or any new policies to help get more renewable generation built. Which means that power prices will have to rise a lot. Before it becomes economically viable for enough renewable generation to be built to get us to 100% renewable power.

Solar power cannot get us there. As in 2016, NZ solar generation averaged out to only 6MW over the entire year. Yet the Huntly power station alone has over 1000MW of generation capacity. So a crazy amount of solar will be needed, just to get rid of 1 fossil fuel power station. Yet alone all of them. And you still have the problem of how to get power during night time. Sorry but solar power will only ever be a niche power source in NZ.

Getting to 100% renewable generation can only be done with large scale hydro and geothermal. But whenever someone wants to get some big hydro built, the local environmental groups oppose it. As those groups refuse to consider the reduction in carbon emissions that will occur by allowing new hydro generation to get built.

 

Not even if we went from very very very few homes having solar to one million?  If they all had HW and PV, there would be a lot of power exported to the grid from homes annually. I know homes are just one user, but my idea would reduce residential distributed requirement by a great deal, especially when export would also then be a feature (for the grid)

 

If hydro generation now, gives us a certain price per kWh, and we needed say 10% more so we added another statioin, why woudl that increase prices a lot, as its only keeping pace with usage, i.e. hydro stations per capita would remain similar


 
 
 
 


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  # 2020977 23-May-2018 10:04
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We need to look further at Wind generation. At present we have little over 5% wind generation, that can be substantially increased. Denmark is of comparable population, its wind generation accounts to greater than 40% of its total generation.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2020986 23-May-2018 10:11
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MikeB4:

 

by your flawed notion  we should do nothing and if all nations follow suit and why shouldn't they as you say it's flawed then nothing gets done and future generations are screwed. it is ok you will be ok and will be able to live out a self centred life.

 

 

I think we should be fast followers.  Let the rest of the world develop clean-technologies and then adopt them when the cost is low enough.

 

The coalition governments ban of exploration won't change our emission profile in the short or medium term.  The next change of government will see the policy reversed and it won't effect our emissions profile before that happens.  The govt are smart enough to know that.

 

I think it is fair to call the policy virtue-signalling, posing, dog-whistle politics, cynical and other applicable pejorative terms.





Mike

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  # 2020992 23-May-2018 10:22
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MikeB4:

 

We need to look further at Wind generation. At present we have little over 5% wind generation, that can be substantially increased. Denmark is of comparable population, its wind generation accounts to greater than 40% of its total generation.

 

 

Ive often thought about a tube on a residential roof, 3 lightweight fans, suspended magnetically from the grid when wind speed makes it viable then self sustaining. Not a lot of generation, but we are a windy country, and it works at night as well. Add a seperate aesthetic garden "ornament" as well. Not a lot , but its often


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  # 2020993 23-May-2018 10:24
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MikeAqua:

 

MikeB4:

 

by your flawed notion  we should do nothing and if all nations follow suit and why shouldn't they as you say it's flawed then nothing gets done and future generations are screwed. it is ok you will be ok and will be able to live out a self centred life.

 

 

I think we should be fast followers.  Let the rest of the world develop clean-technologies and then adopt them when the cost is low enough.

 

The coalition governments ban of exploration won't change our emission profile in the short or medium term.  The next change of government will see the policy reversed and it won't effect our emissions profile before that happens.  The govt are smart enough to know that.

 

I think it is fair to call the policy virtue-signalling, posing, dog-whistle politics, cynical and other applicable pejorative terms.

 

 

Ok, Once USA, China and Australia need something we can go with that. We are talking many many decades before they get drawing boards out as the coal runs low

 

In other words lets forget about climate change till next century, thats really what you are saying


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  # 2020994 23-May-2018 10:25

The Resource Management Act makes it very expensive to build new hydro and wind generation. Which means that some projects either never happen. Or only happen when power prices increase enough to make them viable. And higher power prices mean more fossil fuel usage, as people directly use fossil fuels instead of electricity. As they save money by doing so.

Solar production profiles are a complete mismatch to power demand profiles in NZ. For example I'm currently using a gas heater in my lounge. As LPG is is cheaper than power on a per unit basis. But if it wasn't cold and raining right now, My lounge would be nice and warm (and probably too warm) just from the sun alone. Which demonstrates why exported solar power has very little economic value. As apart from 1 month in summer where there is significant air conditioning load. The rest of the year, solar export is higher on days with lower power consumption. So you need to have large peaking power stations to backup solar.

Countries like Australia and the USA are far better for solar. As they don't have much scope for further hydro or geothermal generation development. And their peak power demand profiles are a perfect match for solar production profiles.





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  # 2020995 23-May-2018 10:30
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MikeAqua:

 

MikeB4:

 

by your flawed notion  we should do nothing and if all nations follow suit and why shouldn't they as you say it's flawed then nothing gets done and future generations are screwed. it is ok you will be ok and will be able to live out a self centred life.

 

 

I think we should be fast followers.  Let the rest of the world develop clean-technologies and then adopt them when the cost is low enough.

 

The coalition governments ban of exploration won't change our emission profile in the short or medium term.  The next change of government will see the policy reversed and it won't effect our emissions profile before that happens.  The govt are smart enough to know that.

 

I think it is fair to call the policy virtue-signalling, posing, dog-whistle politics, cynical and other applicable pejorative terms.

 

 

 

 

Look at  it this way NZ is trying to develop sea farming with such things a muscle farms. Our other fishing resources are under pressure due to over fishing by foreign vessels. Offshore oil and gas exploration and exploitation poses considerable risk to that. Add to that is the investment worth the risk, our oil is generally low grade, the demand on its use as the world moves away from it will diminish making it a poor investment. We are better off investing in alternatives.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2021000 23-May-2018 10:39
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Aredwood: The Resource Management Act makes it very expensive to build new hydro and wind generation. Which means that some projects either never happen. Or only happen when power prices increase enough to make them viable. And higher power prices mean more fossil fuel usage, as people directly use fossil fuels instead of electricity. As they save money by doing so.

Solar production profiles are a complete mismatch to power demand profiles in NZ. For example I'm currently using a gas heater in my lounge. As LPG is is cheaper than power on a per unit basis. But if it wasn't cold and raining right now, My lounge would be nice and warm (and probably too warm) just from the sun alone. Which demonstrates why exported solar power has very little economic value. As apart from 1 month in summer where there is significant air conditioning load. The rest of the year, solar export is higher on days with lower power consumption. So you need to have large peaking power stations to backup solar.

Countries like Australia and the USA are far better for solar. As they don't have much scope for further hydro or geothermal generation development. And their peak power demand profiles are a perfect match for solar production profiles.

 

For an individual we dont want to export, we want to use it. But from an overall view, export is good, if it means the grid can get cheap kWh from me, instead of using water and turbines, so maintain higher lake levels. Essentially, NZ energy needs are met from hydro, geothermal, and one million homes adding their extra kWh, plus Solar HW reduces the kWh needed from PV or the grid, another gain.

 

Having every home with HW and PV may seem Utopian, but one day it will be standard fare. Normal. Maximising the Sun


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  # 2021002 23-May-2018 10:44
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Aredwood: The Resource Management Act makes it very expensive to build new hydro and wind generation. Which means that some projects either never happen. Or only happen when power prices increase enough to make them viable. And higher power prices mean more fossil fuel usage, as people directly use fossil fuels instead of electricity. As they save money by doing so.

Solar production profiles are a complete mismatch to power demand profiles in NZ. For example I'm currently using a gas heater in my lounge. As LPG is is cheaper than power on a per unit basis. But if it wasn't cold and raining right now, My lounge would be nice and warm (and probably too warm) just from the sun alone. Which demonstrates why exported solar power has very little economic value. As apart from 1 month in summer where there is significant air conditioning load. The rest of the year, solar export is higher on days with lower power consumption. So you need to have large peaking power stations to backup solar.

Countries like Australia and the USA are far better for solar. As they don't have much scope for further hydro or geothermal generation development. And their peak power demand profiles are a perfect match for solar production profiles.

 

 

 

Given the gravity of the climate change disaster we are facing, the Resource Management Act needs a major and urgent overhaul to allow the fast track of appropriate measures to deal with it. EG Wind power stations.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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