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400 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1898183 9-Nov-2017 11:29
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Well, it's been a couple of days now and it seems that the Jacindamania pixie dust has well and truly vanished.

 

I have never before see the media piling in on a Labour-lead government the way they are at the moment.

 

'First day farce’ for new govt in Parliament – Hipkins.
"So Ardern had the first day of Parliament going from St Jacinda to being seen as a liar

 

Anatomy of new admin's omnishambles
"The new Govt look as bad as the last in terms of disingenuous spin-doctoring."

 

National makes Government look like fools as it blackmails Labour for Speaker vote 
"National could not have made itself clearer. It made the Government look like fools. It was not joking when it said it would make the new Government's life hell."

 

Red-faced Government needs to bury first-day farce, fast.
“It’s a fair bet that this is not what Labour’s strategists and senior ministers wanted day one"
"the narrative being that this is the same party that only a few months ago was divided, and defeated, that Labour wasn’t ready for power, that the next three years are going to be a shambles.

 

Winston Peters isn't unscathed in the fallout either:

 

Peters' suing of ex-ministers discredits negotiations
"Jacinda Ardern is distancing herself from what he is doing, calling it a personal matter for her Deputy Prime Minister. But she can do nothing to dispel a conclusion that the main reason her party is in office is Peters' personal grudge against National over a matter most members of the public might think they had a right to know."

 

It will be interesting to watch how this develops over time.


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  Reply # 1898191 9-Nov-2017 11:33
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Barry Soper must be in love with the PM the way he carries on about her in his "editorials". Zero balance whatsoever. 

 

 


 
 
 
 


1126 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1898200 9-Nov-2017 11:48
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6FIEND:

 


Well, it's been a couple of days now and it seems that the Jacindamania pixie dust has well and truly vanished.

 

I have never before see the media piling in on a Labour-lead government the way they are at the moment.

 

'First day farce’ for new govt in Parliament – Hipkins.
"So Ardern had the first day of Parliament going from St Jacinda to being seen as a liar

 

Anatomy of new admin's omnishambles
"The new Govt look as bad as the last in terms of disingenuous spin-doctoring."

 

National makes Government look like fools as it blackmails Labour for Speaker vote 
"National could not have made itself clearer. It made the Government look like fools. It was not joking when it said it would make the new Government's life hell."

 

Red-faced Government needs to bury first-day farce, fast.
“It’s a fair bet that this is not what Labour’s strategists and senior ministers wanted day one"
"the narrative being that this is the same party that only a few months ago was divided, and defeated, that Labour wasn’t ready for power, that the next three years are going to be a shambles.

 

Winston Peters isn't unscathed in the fallout either:

 

Peters' suing of ex-ministers discredits negotiations
"Jacinda Ardern is distancing herself from what he is doing, calling it a personal matter for her Deputy Prime Minister. But she can do nothing to dispel a conclusion that the main reason her party is in office is Peters' personal grudge against National over a matter most members of the public might think they had a right to know."

 

It will be interesting to watch how this develops over time.

 

 

 

 

Sadly it was all true. I felt I was watching the antics of a third world country. Good on the opposition for calling them on it.


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  Reply # 1898201 9-Nov-2017 11:48
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networkn:

 

Barry Soper must be in love with the PM the way he carries on about her in his "editorials". Zero balance whatsoever. 

 

 

 

 

His wife seems to be as well.


bmt

322 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1898551 9-Nov-2017 21:59
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Been a few days since I visited and there's too many new pages to go through.

 

The usual people posting in their echo chamber..

 

Labour still in government..

 

Nothing's changed I guess :)


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1898653 10-Nov-2017 09:25
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I think Jacinda has set herself up in a high-risk position over TPPA.  There are three outcomes from her stance re this and ISDS:

 

     

  1. NZ walks away because ISDS remains - protectionists and Jane Kelsey happy; bad for business and trade; PM looks bad
  2. NZ signs up despite ISDS remaining - good for business and trade but howls of protest from the usual suspects.  PM looks bad
  3. NZ manages to get the other 10 countries to drop ISDS so governments can arbitrarily pull the rug out from under a contractual agreement.  PM looks good in the short term

 

The chance of 3 happening is in my view very small


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  Reply # 1898658 10-Nov-2017 09:31
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shk292:

 

I think Jacinda has set herself up in a high-risk position over TPPA.  There are three outcomes from her stance re this and ISDS:

 

     

  1. NZ walks away because ISDS remains - protectionists and Jane Kelsey happy; bad for business and trade; PM looks bad
  2. NZ signs up despite ISDS remaining - good for business and trade but howls of protest from the usual suspects.  PM looks bad
  3. NZ manages to get the other 10 countries to drop ISDS so governments can arbitrarily pull the rug out from under a contractual agreement.  PM looks good in the short term

 

The chance of 3 happening is in my view very small

 

 

When TPPA was raised here, everyone here wanted no TPPA. I even saw marches and signs on the street to ban TPPA. Now if she wants conditions that is good for NZ and it fails, then surely there is no issue? As everyone here disagreed with TPPA in the first place.


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  Reply # 1898662 10-Nov-2017 09:42
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tdgeek:

 

shk292:

 

I think Jacinda has set herself up in a high-risk position over TPPA.  There are three outcomes from her stance re this and ISDS:

 

     

  1. NZ walks away because ISDS remains - protectionists and Jane Kelsey happy; bad for business and trade; PM looks bad
  2. NZ signs up despite ISDS remaining - good for business and trade but howls of protest from the usual suspects.  PM looks bad
  3. NZ manages to get the other 10 countries to drop ISDS so governments can arbitrarily pull the rug out from under a contractual agreement.  PM looks good in the short term

 

The chance of 3 happening is in my view very small

 

 

When TPPA was raised here, everyone here wanted no TPPA. I even saw marches and signs on the street to ban TPPA. Now if she wants conditions that is good for NZ and it fails, then surely there is no issue? As everyone here disagreed with TPPA in the first place.

 

 

Labour *supported* the TPPA, and unless she pulls the pin, which she won't, they will have tried twice in a week to approach world leaders for concessions and failed. Labour talked a big talk during the election about what she was going to insist on, but she doesn't seem to grasp that we have no bargaining power really, and when she inevitably fails to get what she wants, she will make excuses about it. Before someone says "National wouldn't have got those either", it's irrelevant, because JA said she could get it done, and I predict she will not be able to. Again.

 

Most protesters around the TPPA couldn't even name one thing they were specifically bent out of shape about. I don't think "everyone" didn't want the TPPA. A lot of people have specific issues around rights that were being given up for signing it. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1898663 10-Nov-2017 09:44
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tdgeek:

 

shk292:

 

I think Jacinda has set herself up in a high-risk position over TPPA.  There are three outcomes from her stance re this and ISDS:

 

     

  1. NZ walks away because ISDS remains - protectionists and Jane Kelsey happy; bad for business and trade; PM looks bad
  2. NZ signs up despite ISDS remaining - good for business and trade but howls of protest from the usual suspects.  PM looks bad
  3. NZ manages to get the other 10 countries to drop ISDS so governments can arbitrarily pull the rug out from under a contractual agreement.  PM looks good in the short term

 

The chance of 3 happening is in my view very small

 

 

When TPPA was raised here, everyone here wanted no TPPA. I even saw marches and signs on the street to ban TPPA. Now if she wants conditions that is good for NZ and it fails, then surely there is no issue? As everyone here disagreed with TPPA in the first place.

 

 

Not "everyone"!!

 

A small vocal minority didnt want it, because they didnt understand it or better still, were too lazy to try and understand the whole thing.


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  Reply # 1898665 10-Nov-2017 09:48
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tdgeek:

 

When TPPA was raised here, everyone here wanted no TPPA. I even saw marches and signs on the street to ban TPPA. Now if she wants conditions that is good for NZ and it fails, then surely there is no issue? As everyone here disagreed with TPPA in the first place.

 

 

That depends on how you define "everyone".  If you mean "a noisy minority of the population who protest loudly against everything they don't agree with", then you're right that "everyone" disagreed with TPPA.  And it still amuses me in this case that "everyone" (the same everyone) thought that the UK withdrawing from EU was a total disaster, when TPPA is equivalent to EU-lite-lite.

 

 


400 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1898670 10-Nov-2017 09:53
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tdgeek:

 

shk292:

 

I think Jacinda has set herself up in a high-risk position over TPPA.  There are three outcomes from her stance re this and ISDS:

 

     

  1. NZ walks away because ISDS remains - protectionists and Jane Kelsey happy; bad for business and trade; PM looks bad
  2. NZ signs up despite ISDS remaining - good for business and trade but howls of protest from the usual suspects.  PM looks bad
  3. NZ manages to get the other 10 countries to drop ISDS so governments can arbitrarily pull the rug out from under a contractual agreement.  PM looks good in the short term

 

The chance of 3 happening is in my view very small

 

 

When TPPA was raised here, everyone here wanted no TPPA. I even saw marches and signs on the street to ban TPPA. Now if she wants conditions that is good for NZ and it fails, then surely there is no issue? As everyone here disagreed with TPPA in the first place.

 

 

I can see your point, but you need to be careful with the language used here.  You're making assertions that are demonstrably false, and it only serves to weaken your argument.


669 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1898690 10-Nov-2017 10:01
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Those that were against the TPPA for the most part are also against pretty much anything that is seen as being popular to be against depending on the day. I'm just waiting for Sue Bradford et al to jump on the "bash a celebrity" bandwagon and claim Kevin Spacey molested them too.....


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  Reply # 1898692 10-Nov-2017 10:09
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6FIEND:

 

tdgeek:

 

shk292:

 

I think Jacinda has set herself up in a high-risk position over TPPA.  There are three outcomes from her stance re this and ISDS:

 

     

  1. NZ walks away because ISDS remains - protectionists and Jane Kelsey happy; bad for business and trade; PM looks bad
  2. NZ signs up despite ISDS remaining - good for business and trade but howls of protest from the usual suspects.  PM looks bad
  3. NZ manages to get the other 10 countries to drop ISDS so governments can arbitrarily pull the rug out from under a contractual agreement.  PM looks good in the short term

 

The chance of 3 happening is in my view very small

 

 

When TPPA was raised here, everyone here wanted no TPPA. I even saw marches and signs on the street to ban TPPA. Now if she wants conditions that is good for NZ and it fails, then surely there is no issue? As everyone here disagreed with TPPA in the first place.

 

 

I can see your point, but you need to be careful with the language used here.  You're making assertions that are demonstrably false, and it only serves to weaken your argument.

 

 

I used everyone, which here was almost everyone on whatever thread it was on a while back. Bit of poetic licence, but it was a big bad deal from all accounts. Me, its a trade deal which I support, knowing full well that every single point wont suit everyone here or globally. But I guess my point was the view here was very anti, however its probably just the pro piracy I want everything for free brigade perhaps. 


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  Reply # 1898698 10-Nov-2017 10:14
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networkn:

 

 

 

Labour *supported* the TPPA, and unless she pulls the pin, which she won't, they will have tried twice in a week to approach world leaders for concessions and failed. Labour talked a big talk during the election about what she was going to insist on, but she doesn't seem to grasp that we have no bargaining power really, and when she inevitably fails to get what she wants, she will make excuses about it. Before someone says "National wouldn't have got those either", it's irrelevant, because JA said she could get it done, and I predict she will not be able to. Again.

 

Most protesters around the TPPA couldn't even name one thing they were specifically bent out of shape about. I don't think "everyone" didn't want the TPPA. A lot of people have specific issues around rights that were being given up for signing it. 

 

 

 

 

Insisting on doesn't mean that she will get what she wants. She can insist as much as she wants for NZ, but it may or may not happen, primarily as you say, we are too small. Nothing wrong with trying. The Oz request re Manus, that was never going to happen, she knew that, as did everyone, but she put the offer in, same happened as quoted here I think with Joyce on a topic that wasnt going to happen, but he tried. I dont really see the issue. If we put lofty heights on what she goes for so we can grow a list of fails, thats a bit negative. When she tries something that is achievable for NZ and doesn't get it or do it, then target her


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1898706 10-Nov-2017 10:22
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They also refused to reaffirm their election promise on spending in questiontime yesterday several times.. Seems quite a bit of their promise was lies to the NZ people. I hope I am wrong as I almost voted for them myself.


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