Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#2074956 17-Aug-2018 18:07

rjt123:

It's well l known that many employees use their sick leave as a holiday, not because they are genuinely sick. Likewise many will see thsi as an opportunity to have an extra 10 days under a fabricated story of domestic violence.

"Well known" by whom? IIRC there are also provisions requiring employees to provide medical certificates. I can't be bothered looking up the regs just to refute your claim, but was something like three or more consecutive days (whether they're work days or not) - and that can be demanded at the employee's cost, less than 3 days, then it's at the employers cost.

Next you'll be saying they get doctors to lie to trick you.

You have an appalling attitude / expectation of human behaviour.

Bloody disgusting - I hope you're not an employer.

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tdgeek

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#2074981 17-Aug-2018 19:11

networkn:
tdgeek:

After unsubscribing from this thread a long while ago as it was rubbish, I thought I;d have a peek. Still the same.

Its like the olden days of Apple vs Android threads, its all about bias. If you want to argue Apple vs Android, look at the pros and cons of both and DISCUSS. Or throw that out and be biased and show it.

This is worse than the Trump thread, which an unabashed Trump bashing thread, although it is high on real facts. Here it's all bias. Bias doesnt make a discussion, period.

Just because someone is perceived to be biased, doesn't mean what they say isn't true. Plenty of what has been levelled at Labour by way of critisim is well deserved.

Just because you claim you aren't biased, doesn't mean you aren't.

There are pros and cons either side. When it’s one way, it’s one way.

tdgeek

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#2074982 17-Aug-2018 19:13

rjt123:
networkn:
MikeB4:

Domestic violence is a big problem in NZ and just to make matters worse we throw finacial hardship at the victims. This sort of measure wont stop violence but will help rehabilitation a lot.

Why should this be a employers cost? It should fall under social services and be provided by the Government IMO.

BTW I am for supporting victims and stamping out domestic violence (which should go without saying). I am not getting into the details of this, however, I have more than enough personal experience with this topic.

It could easily have been incorporated into an employees 20 days of holidays, so that under 'domestic violence' an employee can use any of their holidays without having to give notice. I don't think that further paid holidays are necessary.

It's well l known that many employees use their sick leave as a holiday, not because they are genuinely sick. Likewise many will see thsi as an opportunity to have an extra 10 days under a fabricated story of domestic violence.

Hardly surprising business confidence is dropping.

Business confidence is dropping but the stats don’t show that. Whether that is sad faces or they know more than the starts we will see.

rjt123

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#2075026 17-Aug-2018 20:35

Fred99:
rjt123:

It's well l known that many employees use their sick leave as a holiday, not because they are genuinely sick. Likewise many will see thsi as an opportunity to have an extra 10 days under a fabricated story of domestic violence.

"Well known" by whom? IIRC there are also provisions requiring employees to provide medical certificates. I can't be bothered looking up the regs just to refute your claim, but was something like three or more consecutive days (whether they're work days or not) - and that can be demanded at the employee's cost, less than 3 days, then it's at the employers cost.

Next you'll be saying they get doctors to lie to trick you.

You have an appalling attitude / expectation of human behaviour.

Bloody disgusting - I hope you're not an employer.

I honestly don't know how to respond to your post. But like this labour government, you respond to reality with naivety. I struggle to comprehend that approach.

It would be nice to assume the best in people. But ask yourself why government exists? Why law exists? Because not everyone human, all the time, acts in the best interests of society. People murder, rape, abuse or steal from other people. (Or is your reaction to that statement shock and horror that I would suggest that if a human?). So that is why we have government and law, to keep those negative actions in check. But to get back to the point, even if there is regulation, humans do break it. Welcome to the real world.

However, to set your mind at rest (though I can't see why it matters in this context) I'm not an employer.

And therefore being an employee I can honestly say I'm at the coalface and I see what happens. Does it worry me? No. But to pretend that it doesn't happen very regularly would be incredibly naive ( which your post shows you to be). It would be nice to think that it never happens, but of course it does. It would be nice to assume the best in your employees will always come out, but sadly that's not always the case.

I have done it myself. I know plenty of people who have done it. I spoke to a large employer once (that's is, he had a large business, he wasn't large himself) who told me, laughing, but serious, that he has noticed that the most sick leave is taken when it's good weather. Take that how u like.

Yes, an employer can ask for a medical certificate, but honestly who would bother? Or maybe you would if u we're an employer? But if an employee said they had a bad cold, would u force them to go to the doctors and spend $50 to get a doctor's note to say they couldn't go to work? That's hardly reasonable.

If I have misunderstood your post then please feel free to set me straight. Sometimes your posts are good, often I don't agree, but nevertheless well said, but this time I struggle to comprehend your reasoning.

Fred99

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#2075076 17-Aug-2018 22:02

I haven't got time for a full reply, but just say that if you're in a workplace where abuse of sick leave is rife, then the management should be flayed by the stakeholders. It's not a question of lost productivity through loss of hours, but if the employees have that attitude, then they'll be putting in a half-hearted effort even when they're there.
Why the hell would an "engaged" employee take the proverbial when it will be noticed? If they aren't engaged - then is that entirely their fault? In cases where it is - sack them. Everyone will be happier.
If there's excessive sick leave which is genuine, then the business owner should also be concerned.

rjt123

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#2075091 17-Aug-2018 23:42

Fred99: I haven't got time for a full reply, but just say that if you're in a workplace where abuse of sick leave is rife, then the management should be flayed by the stakeholders. It's not a question of lost productivity through loss of hours, but if the employees have that attitude, then they'll be putting in a half-hearted effort even when they're there.
Why the hell would an "engaged" employee take the proverbial when it will be noticed? If they aren't engaged - then is that entirely their fault? In cases where it is - sack them. Everyone will be happier.
If there's excessive sick leave which is genuine, then the business owner should also be concerned.

I agree. Multiple problems if it is 'rife'. However thanks for acknowledging that it is possible.

networkn

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#2075477 18-Aug-2018 18:12

Well, by now no-one should be surprised by the fact that everything Labour "fixes" will have an associated Tax.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/106268761/superregions-or-a-special-tax--how-the-government-plans-to-fix-new-zealands-broken-water-systems

tdgeek

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#2075486 18-Aug-2018 18:49

networkn:

Well, by now no-one should be surprised by the fact that everything Labour "fixes" will have an associated Tax.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/106268761/superregions-or-a-special-tax--how-the-government-plans-to-fix-new-zealands-broken-water-systems

Fair enough, but...

If such issues were kept up to date and maintained over time, there would not be a catch up phase. Same for teachers same for health. End of the day, irregardless of whatever Govt holds the reins, funds need to be spent. Im ok if a tax covered this off, also ok if other expenditure was shelved in favour of this. Then, when other expenditure is shelved thats another Labour problem?

Ed of the day NZ is poor, relatively. Analagous to many households, the can sort everything, but not right now, over time.

bmt

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#2075521 18-Aug-2018 22:16

Hey rjt123,

Some beneficiaries commit benefit fraud, lets cancel ALL benefits!

Some businesses commit tax fraud, lets cancel ALL business!

Some drivers break the road rules, lets ban ALL drivers!

Some employees may fake being domestic violence victims to get special leave...

Because a small percentage may do the wrong thing is not a good enough reason to not do something , mmk?

MikeAqua

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#2075709 19-Aug-2018 12:11

networkn:

Well, by now no-one should be surprised by the fact that everything Labour "fixes" will have an associated Tax.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/106268761/superregions-or-a-special-tax--how-the-government-plans-to-fix-new-zealands-broken-water-systems

Weren't Labour opposed to superising while in opposition - death of local governance and all that.

Mike

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#2076126 20-Aug-2018 11:54

tdgeek:
rjt123: Hardly surprising business confidence is dropping.

Business confidence is dropping but the stats don’t show that. Whether that is sad faces or they know more than the starts we will see.

I think Labour's plans to manage the economy amount to little more than, "Think happy thoughts... Think happy thoughts!"

Unfortunately:

Indisputable evidence a downturn in business confidence is hitting actual activity

tdgeek

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#2076134 20-Aug-2018 12:00

I read an article on this last week, two economists commenting. There is a downturn, as Labour won the election, so the default practice is to lose confidence. Stats dont back that up, BUT they commented that due to their belief and bias that things will go downhill, they act on that, and things go downhill. As compared to seeing hardcore stats that the economy is sliding, THEN reducing investment and employment.

tdgeek

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#2076142 20-Aug-2018 12:04

Furthermore, having skimmed your article, it points to a large number of factors, whereas your post pointed to one

rjt123

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#2076147 20-Aug-2018 12:11

bmt:
Hey rjt123,

Some beneficiaries commit benefit fraud, lets cancel ALL benefits!

Some businesses commit tax fraud, lets cancel ALL business!

Some drivers break the road rules, lets ban ALL drivers!

Some employees may fake being domestic violence victims to get special leave...

Because a small percentage may do the wrong thing is not a good enough reason to not do something , mmk?

It's easy to suppose that a business possesses somewhere an endless supply of wealth. It's easy to suppose that an employer can afford to give any or all their employees another 10 days paid leave. But have you ever stopped to consider, that for a business say with 25 employees, giving each of them another 10 days paid leave is the equivalent of years salary for another employee, but with no productivity.

On the one hand we see labour supporters denigrating the lack of increase in productivity even while there was positive growth. But give them a chance and they support every anti-productivity measure this labour government puts in place. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

networkn

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#2076150 20-Aug-2018 12:16

tdgeek:

I read an article on this last week, two economists commenting. There is a downturn, as Labour won the election, so the default practice is to lose confidence. Stats dont back that up, BUT they commented that due to their belief and bias that things will go downhill, they act on that, and things go downhill. As compared to seeing hardcore stats that the economy is sliding, THEN reducing investment and employment.

So they, and Labour are saying it's a self professing prophecy? Do they intend to do nothing as a result?

Why do you think Businesses feel pessemestic under Labour? Perhaps because Labour has lumped businesses with extra costs, and extra compliance done little or nothing to compensate in any way?

Do you see any pro business legislation?

One thing that people don't often take into account, is that, even if it's not directly and or entirely Labours fault if the economy goes south, do they have the power and knowledge to do something about it? I don't think they do. Plenty of others doubt it too.

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