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bmt

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  Reply # 1902962 16-Nov-2017 20:57
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So by all accounts its been a successful trip for Jacinda Ardern, don't think I've come across many (if any) articles saying she's done a bad job. 

 

I see the usual suspects are squealing about Manus here too. I've seen plenty of opinion on both sides of the equation - a lot of people saying gunning for this Manus situation is the right thing to do, puts us in a good light etc. It's all a matter of perspective really - if you're a right wing National voter then obviously you're going to oppose it just because Jacinda Ardern.

 

The Australian treatment of refugees is disgraceful but I mean there's actual refugees and then there's economic refugees. I don't think these Manus chaps by and large are genuine 'fleeing from something' refugees, are they?

 

As for letting 150 in, I'm sure we can draw something up so they can't just hop on the first flight to Aussie. Just because we bring them in doesn't mean we or Aussie have to give them access..


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  Reply # 1902967 16-Nov-2017 21:12
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bmt:

 

So by all accounts its been a successful trip for Jacinda Ardern, don't think I've come across many (if any) articles saying she's done a bad job. 

 

I see the usual suspects are squealing about Manus here too. I've seen plenty of opinion on both sides of the equation - a lot of people saying gunning for this Manus situation is the right thing to do, puts us in a good light etc. It's all a matter of perspective really - if you're a right wing National voter then obviously you're going to oppose it just because Jacinda Ardern.

 

The Australian treatment of refugees is disgraceful but I mean there's actual refugees and then there's economic refugees. I don't think these Manus chaps by and large are genuine 'fleeing from something' refugees, are they?

 

As for letting 150 in, I'm sure we can draw something up so they can't just hop on the first flight to Aussie. Just because we bring them in doesn't mean we or Aussie have to give them access..

 

 

They have been locked up for close to three years. Disgraceful.

 

They should have been deported back to where they came from by the Aussies, rather than keeping them locked up. They arent real refuges as such because they all paid large sums of money to people smugglers to get them to Australia where they knew the risks were very great. Whilst I realise the world is not a nice place and Australia must seem like a wonderful place to crash....but surely its not NZ's issue if the Aussies have said NO so many times. Lets spend our hard earned tax dollars some place where it is appreciated a bit better...eg at home, and let the Aussies and their BFF's America sort it out.


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  Reply # 1903083 17-Nov-2017 04:07
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Pumpedd:

 

bmt:

 

So by all accounts its been a successful trip for Jacinda Ardern, don't think I've come across many (if any) articles saying she's done a bad job. 

 

I see the usual suspects are squealing about Manus here too. I've seen plenty of opinion on both sides of the equation - a lot of people saying gunning for this Manus situation is the right thing to do, puts us in a good light etc. It's all a matter of perspective really - if you're a right wing National voter then obviously you're going to oppose it just because Jacinda Ardern.

 

The Australian treatment of refugees is disgraceful but I mean there's actual refugees and then there's economic refugees. I don't think these Manus chaps by and large are genuine 'fleeing from something' refugees, are they?

 

As for letting 150 in, I'm sure we can draw something up so they can't just hop on the first flight to Aussie. Just because we bring them in doesn't mean we or Aussie have to give them access..

 

 

They have been locked up for close to three years. Disgraceful.

 

They should have been deported back to where they came from by the Aussies, rather than keeping them locked up. They arent real refuges as such because they all paid large sums of money to people smugglers to get them to Australia where they knew the risks were very great. Whilst I realise the world is not a nice place and Australia must seem like a wonderful place to crash....but surely its not NZ's issue if the Aussies have said NO so many times. Lets spend our hard earned tax dollars some place where it is appreciated a bit better...eg at home, and let the Aussies and their BFF's America sort it out.

 

 

I see positives from both sides. Its a positive request to help. If they say no, thats fine, we offered. It makes NZ look good, and strong. Not just the puny little brother across the ditch who shuts up and does what we are told. 


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  Reply # 1903097 17-Nov-2017 07:42
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We didnt just offer it....we went on and on about it at the highest level. All this while USA is still vetting the ones it is taking...its weird. Now I read that some of the males in the camp are committing sex crimes. Typical Labour..not doing enough homework first.


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  Reply # 1903102 17-Nov-2017 07:55
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Pumpedd:

 

We didnt just offer it....we went on and on about it at the highest level. All this while USA is still vetting the ones it is taking...its weird. Now I read that some of the males in the camp are committing sex crimes. Typical Labour..not doing enough homework first.

 

 

Im not sure I would say on and on about it. I'm not sure how anyone would be able to be aware of an issue that in itself was just leaked by Oz security.

 

I see it all as very minor. At least we made offer, and then continued to show concern, and unlike how the NZ relationship is with OZ, we didnt just shut up and go back to our corner. Politically we are nothing to Australia, small and relatively poor. Being assertive here is a good thing. Its just one acne issue, it wont break anything.  


bmt

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  Reply # 1903462 17-Nov-2017 20:57
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I would guess there are legal issues around just deporting them back to wherever they came from. At the end of the day though it's almost universally agreed that Australia's approach to the whole situation and their treatment of asylum seekers/refugees is an absolute disgrace. 

 

As for the unproven "sex crimes", it would be naive to think the NZ government wouldn't vet who was to come over


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  Reply # 1904107 19-Nov-2017 17:07
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bmt:

 

I would guess there are legal issues around just deporting them back to wherever they came from. At the end of the day though it's almost universally agreed that Australia's approach to the whole situation and their treatment of asylum seekers/refugees is an absolute disgrace. 

 

As for the unproven "sex crimes", it would be naive to think the NZ government wouldn't vet who was to come over

 

 

IIRC Australia actually takes more than double the number of refugees per capita as NZ does.

 

(a quick google shows about 19,000 in 2016 - actually about 3-4x NZ per capita intake).

 

No excuse for the apparently disgraceful treatment of boat-people asylum seekers, but NZers need to be a bit cautious in claiming moral high ground over the subject of Australian treatment of refugees.

 

How the refugees are treated when they arrive in Australia - anecdotally I'm told that settlement programs there aren't exactly very successful in nationalising refugees and preparing them for the Aussie way of life - but I have no idea really how that compares with NZ.


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  Reply # 1904205 19-Nov-2017 20:48
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bmt:

 

I would guess there are legal issues around just deporting them back to wherever they came from. At the end of the day though it's almost universally agreed that Australia's approach to the whole situation and their treatment of asylum seekers/refugees is an absolute disgrace. 

 

As for the unproven "sex crimes", it would be naive to think the NZ government wouldn't vet who was to come over

 

 

 

 

And more naive to think vetting people for whom records probably do not exist would have any effect. Look at the significant uptick in sexual offences in EU countries that have taken refugees. Some fairly shocking offences in the UK, Sweden, Germany, France etc etc.






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  Reply # 1904252 19-Nov-2017 22:51
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Geektastic:

 

bmt:

 

I would guess there are legal issues around just deporting them back to wherever they came from. At the end of the day though it's almost universally agreed that Australia's approach to the whole situation and their treatment of asylum seekers/refugees is an absolute disgrace. 

 

As for the unproven "sex crimes", it would be naive to think the NZ government wouldn't vet who was to come over

 

 

 

 

And more naive to think vetting people for whom records probably do not exist would have any effect. Look at the significant uptick in sexual offences in EU countries that have taken refugees. Some fairly shocking offences in the UK, Sweden, Germany, France etc etc.

 

 

Sounds like a load of bigoted hysterical rubbish to me.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2016/overviewofviolentcrimeandsexualoffences#what-do-we-know-about-sexual-offences

 

 

The increase in police recorded sexual offences is thought to reflect both an improvement in the recording of sexual offences by the police and an increased willingness of victims to come forward to report these crimes to the police. Therefore, it is not thought that these figures currently provide a reliable indication of trends in sexual offences. These figures should be seen in the context of a number of high-profile reports and inquiries, which are thought to have resulted in police forces reviewing and improving their recording practices, including HMIC’s inspection of crime recording, published in late 2014, which concluded that across England and Wales an estimated 1 in 4 (26%) sexual offences that should have been recorded as crimes were not.

 

 

Shame on you.


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  Reply # 1904309 20-Nov-2017 09:10
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99037871/risk-could-scupper-reentering-pike-river-mine

 

I am against re-entry, but the coalition made a massive deal about the fact they would go back in and now it would seem on the face of it, they are hedging their bets at best. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1904314 20-Nov-2017 09:27
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networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99037871/risk-could-scupper-reentering-pike-river-mine

 

I am against re-entry, but the coalition made a massive deal about the fact they would go back in and now it would seem on the face of it, they are hedging their bets at best. 

 

 

 

 

Seems they got into power based on many lies and deceits.


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  Reply # 1904315 20-Nov-2017 09:27
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networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99037871/risk-could-scupper-reentering-pike-river-mine

 

I am against re-entry, but the coalition made a massive deal about the fact they would go back in and now it would seem on the face of it, they are hedging their bets at best. 

 

 

 

 

Seems pretty standard to me. Everyone knows there is a risk, including the families who dont want anyone else hurt. Assess the risk fully then decide. I guess the interesting issue will be if the Govt says risk is too high, families says we dont think so. Its been inert for some time, and theoretically you could just wander down there as long as your lighting was not a flammable risk. Legal issues too. The best the families can hope for if they cannot go in, is a full assessment that backs up National's position, and Labour agrees now that a full assessment has been carried out. Im unsure what National assessed TBH, but its a situation where you would err on the side of caution


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  Reply # 1904318 20-Nov-2017 09:29
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tdgeek:

 

networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99037871/risk-could-scupper-reentering-pike-river-mine

 

I am against re-entry, but the coalition made a massive deal about the fact they would go back in and now it would seem on the face of it, they are hedging their bets at best. 

 

 

 

 

Seems pretty standard to me. Everyone knows there is a risk, including the families who dont want anyone else hurt. Assess the risk fully then decide. I guess the interesting issue will be if the Govt says risk is too high, families says we dont think so. Its been inert for some time, and theoretically you could just wander down there as long as your lighting was not a flammable risk. Legal issues too. The best the families can hope for if they cannot go in, is a full assessment that backs up National's position, and Labour agrees now that a full assessment has been carried out. Im unsure what National assessed TBH, but its a situation where you would err on the side of caution

 

 

This is not how they campaigned on it. They said they had seen the reports and believed it was safe. They didn't say they would assess it and make a decision, they said they would go in. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1904322 20-Nov-2017 09:33
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Pumpedd:

 

networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/99037871/risk-could-scupper-reentering-pike-river-mine

 

I am against re-entry, but the coalition made a massive deal about the fact they would go back in and now it would seem on the face of it, they are hedging their bets at best. 

 

 

 

 

Seems they got into power based on many lies and deceits.

 

 

Did they Govt Guarantee that they will definitely go in? 100%. No questions asked? Its a done deal? if so, you are correct

 

Under National

 

"I think one of the problems has been that they haven't felt there's been contestable advice, that there's been enough transparency," she said.

 

Under Labour

 

"We've said that we certainly hope and believe from the evidence that we've seen that it's possible, and that's our starting point. but if we find information that seems robust, and is robust to both us and them then we'll work through that together."

 

Seems pretty sensible to me. I have no issue that National did not make it happen, no one knows whether its safe or not

 

 


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  Reply # 1904323 20-Nov-2017 09:35
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networkn:

 

 

 

This is not how they campaigned on it. They said they had seen the reports and believed it was safe. They didn't say they would assess it and make a decision, they said they would go in. 

 

 

 

 

The two bolds they purportedly said don't match


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