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  Reply # 1917000 11-Dec-2017 21:03
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Fred99:

 

Geektastic:
tdgeek:

 

On reflection, I took @Fred99 post too literally, it sounded like a too good to be true idea to buy rentals now, as his peers are doing. We only buy rents for capital gain, there is no other reason. With the prices, a CG will take a long while. Rents could easily ease once the so called 100,000 affordable homes kicks in. With prices today, many might give up and just buy a fixer upper. Where is a good place add more homes? Rental market. Make rentals less viable, they get sold off, and it wont generally be to the rich and famous. Brightline can change to achieve that, too many unknowns. But interesting to hear what some feel is a boom time to buy rentals. Oh, and the new rules for safer dryer homes, plus what else will be added to that. 

 



Certainly no other reason in NZ

We used to rent our flat in the UK out for 60% more than the mortgage but rents in NZ aren't high enough to make a living that way.

 

Yes I agree.  That's despite the fact that the NZ taxpayer subsidises rent payments by way of the accommodation supplement, to the tune of several billion dollars a year.  According to the "supply:demand" theory of real estate rental value, that government intervention is actually keeping rental prices (and returns to landlords) much higher than laissez-faire economics should do.  But that's the kind of extreme interventionist policy in the housing market that the Key National government seemed to support. Incredible.

 

Then they have the absolute gall to criticise Labour's current suggestions to intervene...

 

 

 

 

I cannot comment on the numbers. Beneficiaries do get subsidies, but what is the beneficiary/waged ratio? 


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  Reply # 1917003 11-Dec-2017 21:23
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tdgeek:

 

Fred99:

 

Geektastic:
tdgeek:

 

On reflection, I took @Fred99 post too literally, it sounded like a too good to be true idea to buy rentals now, as his peers are doing. We only buy rents for capital gain, there is no other reason. With the prices, a CG will take a long while. Rents could easily ease once the so called 100,000 affordable homes kicks in. With prices today, many might give up and just buy a fixer upper. Where is a good place add more homes? Rental market. Make rentals less viable, they get sold off, and it wont generally be to the rich and famous. Brightline can change to achieve that, too many unknowns. But interesting to hear what some feel is a boom time to buy rentals. Oh, and the new rules for safer dryer homes, plus what else will be added to that. 

 



Certainly no other reason in NZ

We used to rent our flat in the UK out for 60% more than the mortgage but rents in NZ aren't high enough to make a living that way.

 

Yes I agree.  That's despite the fact that the NZ taxpayer subsidises rent payments by way of the accommodation supplement, to the tune of several billion dollars a year.  According to the "supply:demand" theory of real estate rental value, that government intervention is actually keeping rental prices (and returns to landlords) much higher than laissez-faire economics should do.  But that's the kind of extreme interventionist policy in the housing market that the Key National government seemed to support. Incredible.

 

Then they have the absolute gall to criticise Labour's current suggestions to intervene...

 

 

 

 

I cannot comment on the numbers. Beneficiaries do get subsidies, but what is the beneficiary/waged ratio? 

 

 

It's kind of irrelevant - as people earning wages also receive the accommodation supplement.

 

They also get WFF.

 

It's a dystopian nightmare.  What's always been needed is intense focus on ensuring that "ordinary hard working people" got a fair go.

 

Instead we get a mish-mash of socialist support for losers - to compensate for the impact of the ridiculous free-market incentive to screw each other over and feel good about it...


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  Reply # 1917083 12-Dec-2017 07:11
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Fred99:

 

Geektastic:
tdgeek:

 

On reflection, I took @Fred99 post too literally, it sounded like a too good to be true idea to buy rentals now, as his peers are doing. We only buy rents for capital gain, there is no other reason. With the prices, a CG will take a long while. Rents could easily ease once the so called 100,000 affordable homes kicks in. With prices today, many might give up and just buy a fixer upper. Where is a good place add more homes? Rental market. Make rentals less viable, they get sold off, and it wont generally be to the rich and famous. Brightline can change to achieve that, too many unknowns. But interesting to hear what some feel is a boom time to buy rentals. Oh, and the new rules for safer dryer homes, plus what else will be added to that. 

 



Certainly no other reason in NZ

We used to rent our flat in the UK out for 60% more than the mortgage but rents in NZ aren't high enough to make a living that way.

 

Yes I agree.  That's despite the fact that the NZ taxpayer subsidises rent payments by way of the accommodation supplement, to the tune of several billion dollars a year.  According to the "supply:demand" theory of real estate rental value, that government intervention is actually keeping rental prices (and returns to landlords) much higher than laissez-faire economics should do.  But that's the kind of extreme interventionist policy in the housing market that the Key National government seemed to support. Incredible.

 

Then they have the absolute gall to criticise Labour's current suggestions to intervene...

 

 

 

 

Not strictly accurate. Those same beneficiaries would have been in the rental market irrespective of whether they received accommodation subsidies. (Even if they couldn't afford it they would have been in the rental market, not the home buyers market), so not exactly increasing the market size.
Secondly, that's not extreme intervention. Extreme would be to intervene directly with consumers or suppliers to fix prices, see specific standards of quality ( think rental wof's) or to specify where someone can rent. National was not perfectly capitalist and nor is labour perfectly socialist. Nationals approach let's the supply adjust to the market, if there are high returns short term then more will enter the market pulling down rates in the medium term. Laissez-faire economics creates short term spikes and vacillation but the market balances over time, but labour's interventionist approach creates inefficiency in the market (dead weight loss) which helps neither supplier or consumers in the long term. So national was justified in criticising labour, because they obviously have a very poor understanding of basic economics. Hardly galling, but rather a practical and reasonable criticism, thinking of the well-being of the economy and consumers - although perhaps above the head of many of them.


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  Reply # 1917135 12-Dec-2017 09:04
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rjt123:

 

Not strictly accurate. Those same beneficiaries would have been in the rental market irrespective of whether they received accommodation subsidies. (Even if they couldn't afford it they would have been in the rental market, not the home buyers market), so not exactly increasing the market size.

 

 

Absolutely it's increasing market demand for accommodation ($$$) by driving "affordability" upwards.  It's a band-aid to limit squalor in the rental housing market - supply may be short, but if you can't pay then you can't rent - driving demand down.  If you can't afford to rent in your place of choice without being given free taxpayer money, then you better move to where you can afford.  So it increases / maintains demand in the cities, keeping prices at the low end inflated.  The taxpayer money ends up being given to landlords.  It's the same when the state grants/gifts money to first home buyers to improve affordability - that keeps prices up and distorts the free market model from setting prices.

 

Meanwhile government allowed massive net immigration, further increasing housing demand, while simultaneously increasing labour supply to keep wages down.

 

 


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  Reply # 1917158 12-Dec-2017 09:32
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Rikkitic:

 

I was pulled away by a medical emergency but I also don't run when challenged on something I have said. Nor do I obediently jump through whatever hoops someone else sees fit to put in my way. I am prepared to defend my ideas, or to change them if necessary. I am not prepared to jump just because someone tells me to. If anyone has a genuine question about my ideas or beliefs, I will do my best to answer it, but I don't have much patience for game-playing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry to hear about your personal emergency.

 

 

 

And, I'm also sorry that you felt that you were being tested or "gamed" in this case.  We clearly disagree on a number of issues, but I was genuinely seeking a better understanding of your thoughts when I asked you to elaborate. 

 

There has been criticism made of this thread that it was no more than an exercise in "bagging the other side."  I was hopeful that, given the opportunity to engage in a constructive contest of ideas, that there might be an appetite to examine some of them in a little more depth.


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  Reply # 1917184 12-Dec-2017 09:58
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6FIEND:

 

Sorry to hear about your personal emergency.

 

 

 

And, I'm also sorry that you felt that you were being tested or "gamed" in this case.  We clearly disagree on a number of issues, but I was genuinely seeking a better understanding of your thoughts when I asked you to elaborate. 

 

There has been criticism made of this thread that it was no more than an exercise in "bagging the other side."  I was hopeful that, given the opportunity to engage in a constructive contest of ideas, that there might be an appetite to examine some of them in a little more depth.

 

 

Thanks. I respect your obvious knowledge and intelligence and I do not mind engaging in a contest of ideas, but I felt like I was being subjected to an exam, or studied like an interesting specimen. As I said before, I am not an economist and I do not have specialist knowledge in this area, but I do have a brain and I subscribe to certain principles.

 

I don't doubt there are absolute dummies on both sides of the political spectrum in Parliament and in the ministries, but I also don't doubt there are plenty of capable, hard-working people of all political persuasions doing their best to find answers. That is usually the case. If there was an easy answer to the housing situation, or any other major problem, it would have been tried. Whatever the mistakes of the past, the simple fact that there is a crisis means there is not an easy fix. But there are always things that can be done to begin movement in a better direction. That is the discussion we should be having.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1917252 12-Dec-2017 10:47
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Rikkitic:

 

I don't doubt there are absolute dummies on both sides of the political spectrum in Parliament and in the ministries, but I also don't doubt there are plenty of capable, hard-working people of all political persuasions doing their best to find answers. That is usually the case. If there was an easy answer to the housing situation, or any other major problem, it would have been tried. Whatever the mistakes of the past, the simple fact that there is a crisis means there is not an easy fix. But there are always things that can be done to begin movement in a better direction. That is the discussion we should be having.

 

 

Most politicians and government officials are pretty sharp.  The issue is what motivates them and more and more it seems to be personal aspiration rather than the national good. 

 

The public service used to be full of well meaning people with deep expertise who genuinely cared about the country.  Some of them may have been myopic and misguided - but they meant well.  Unfortunately the public service has been politicised since the mid-1990s and it is largely political creatures who can manage spin and schmooze that get into senior positions. I don't blame either party for this - it may simply be a consequence of the way media and social media have evolved as technology has changed.

 

Less senior positions are typically occupied by people with strong project management skills.  Genuine subject matter experts and good leaders are now few and far between in the public service.  Many of them have been deliberately re-structured out because they were 'difficult'.  I know one remaining subject matter expert who is a mathematician working in government department.  His work saves this country ten of millions of dollars every year.  He is a shy/humble back office guy and will never seek or receive widespread acclaim for this.  He isn't even paid that well.

 

Politicians are typically terrible at governance (for an example see local government).  Having politicians in ministerial roles in unavoidable but now we have then running the government departments as well.





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  Reply # 1917284 12-Dec-2017 11:31
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tdgeek:

 

Geektastic:
tdgeek:

 

On reflection, I took @Fred99 post too literally, it sounded like a too good to be true idea to buy rentals now, as his peers are doing. We only buy rents for capital gain, there is no other reason. With the prices, a CG will take a long while. Rents could easily ease once the so called 100,000 affordable homes kicks in. With prices today, many might give up and just buy a fixer upper. Where is a good place add more homes? Rental market. Make rentals less viable, they get sold off, and it wont generally be to the rich and famous. Brightline can change to achieve that, too many unknowns. But interesting to hear what some feel is a boom time to buy rentals. Oh, and the new rules for safer dryer homes, plus what else will be added to that. 

 



Certainly no other reason in NZ

We used to rent our flat in the UK out for 60% more than the mortgage but rents in NZ aren't high enough to make a living that way.

 

Rarely has been here. I had a rental ay 19yo. You cant make money off renting, its the CG that matters.

 

 

 

 

I have not the time, nor the academic inclination, to investigate why the difference exists - but there are many landlords in the UK who live off the rental surplus after mortgage - indeed, there are entire companies that make a living doing it from commercial lettings. Of course, ultimately they usually make money from CG also.

 

We had a house in Thorndon and were going to let it (Michael Cullen had the house next door as his Ministerial residence) but even there, full of embassies and so on, the rent was not going to cover a $400,000 mortgage so we just sold it and moved on.






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  Reply # 1917295 12-Dec-2017 11:47
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Absolutely it's increasing market demand for accommodation ($$$) by driving "affordability" upwards.  It's a band-aid to limit squalor in the rental housing market - supply may be short, but if you can't pay then you can't rent - driving demand down.  If you can't afford to rent in your place of choice without being given free taxpayer money, then you better move to where you can afford.  So it increases / maintains demand in the cities, keeping prices at the low end inflated.  The taxpayer money ends up being given to landlords.  It's the same when the state grants/gifts money to first home buyers to improve affordability - that keeps prices up and distorts the free market model from setting prices.

Meanwhile government allowed massive net immigration, further increasing housing demand, while simultaneously increasing labour supply to keep wages down.



Yes, it will impact prices, but there is little alternative. I don't think rental prices can go much lower, if they go lower and coupled with lower capital gains, the ROI will fall and we'll see a reduction in the number of rentals which will drive the price back up again. I think an accommodation subsidy is appropriate for our economy, any further intervention is not appropriate.

And yes, people should move to affordable areas. We talk about house prices as though they are a national crisis, but it's only a crisis if u choose to live in the main centres. Personally it's not a crisis for me, cos I live in Taranaki. So yes the govt did allow immigration, but thats not a problem, no shortage of housing where I come from, a free market just takes a while for the population to decentralize. For sure, it might have suppressed wages, but the lower wage an immigrant is happy to work for the less likely they are to be buying houses.

However, decentralization is the key. That's the single legacy of JK that I don't agree with. He liked big cities, making Auckland a city the world looked up to was his goal, but in reality, NZ would have been better off with a more even spread of population, but neither party has made that a priority unfortunately.


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  Reply # 1917356 12-Dec-2017 12:41
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I am in two minds of the announcement today regarding dropping of National Standards. In some ways I applaud it (see I do praise Labour when it's due), it seems fluffy and difficult to assess our kids progress currently, having said that, we spent how many hundred million on NS? What is the cost to go "back"? Is the money spent, going to improve competency rates by the amount spent? I recall the early days of chaos when National Standards were implemented. Thankfully I had left school at that point. I wonder if a similar level of chaos will ensue. 

 

Teachers I speak to say they find the reporting part of their job interferes with children time, and lament the number of extra hours they spend complying with the requirements, but given our low literacy rates, that data is required to determine if what we spend is required, and if it's appropriately channelled. 

 

Both my kids are English as a first language but have classes made up of heavily ESOL students, and I feel it has taken away from their progress. It's only really this year (my son is 8) that Alex has found reading enjoyable. Compared, I recall spending every waking moment with my face in a book. At 11 I had the reading comphrenshion of a 21 year old.

 

It is exciting for me to see him actively seeking out opportunities to read.

 

 


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  Reply # 1917383 12-Dec-2017 12:57
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networkn:

 

I am in two minds of the announcement today regarding dropping of National Standards. In some ways I applaud it (see I do praise Labour when it's due), it seems fluffy and difficult to assess our kids progress currently, having said that, we spent how many hundred million on NS? What is the cost to go "back"? Is the money spent, going to improve competency rates by the amount spent? I recall the early days of chaos when National Standards were implemented. Thankfully I had left school at that point. I wonder if a similar level of chaos will ensue. 

 

Teachers I speak to say they find the reporting part of their job interferes with children time, and lament the number of extra hours they spend complying with the requirements, but given our low literacy rates, that data is required to determine if what we spend is required, and if it's appropriately channelled. 

 

Both my kids are English as a first language but have classes made up of heavily ESOL students, and I feel it has taken away from their progress. It's only really this year (my son is 8) that Alex has found reading enjoyable. Compared, I recall spending every waking moment with my face in a book. At 11 I had the reading comphrenshion of a 21 year old.

 

It is exciting for me to see him actively seeking out opportunities to read.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure when they were introduced it was for good reasons and yes it did cost. It will cost again to change it. But, thats life. I have no issue with the money, nor who spent it then or now. The next iteration will benefit from past efforts, and thats the main thing

 

I used it read like you when I was a kid, a task for this winter for me!


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  Reply # 1917420 12-Dec-2017 13:50
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Chris Trotter is in the paper comparing JA to Boudica Iceni queen who lead a brutal but ultimately failed uprising againts the Romans.

 

I wonder if he knows that Boudica was reported to have had women captives mutilated in some pretty horrific ways as well as executing entire communities.  





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  Reply # 1917428 12-Dec-2017 13:56
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Also a compulsive reader when I was young though regrettably no longer so much. I don't know if National Standards are the cause, but our current poor literacy rates are very unfortunate. It is a shame that so many young people may never experience the joy of a good book.

 

 





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  Reply # 1917437 12-Dec-2017 14:14
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Rikkitic:

 

Also a compulsive reader when I was young though regrettably no longer so much. I don't know if National Standards are the cause, but our current poor literacy rates are very unfortunate. It is a shame that so many young people may never experience the joy of a good book.

 

 

 

 

No doubt someone will be able to find the stats, but I wonder how many Native NZ'r's in houses where English is the first language, have poor literacy rates?

 

My mother was an avid reader. I probably did more reading because of her interest in it. I suspect with two busy parents (my mother was a single working mother, but worked set hours milking cows mostly), the lesser level of attention at home re reading and writing will all be contributing factors. 

 

Our kids have reading apps on their tablets, and they are required to do at least one lesson in either math or reading before recreational stuff. 

 

Having said that, my Son has a naturally mathematical mind. Took me less than 3 minutes to teach him division and at 8 can do basic algebra. His teacher actually asked me to stop teaching him stuff because he was teaching it to the other kids! 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1917438 12-Dec-2017 14:14
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MikeAqua:

 

Chris Trotter is in the paper comparing JA to Boudica Iceni queen who lead a brutal but ultimately failed uprising againts the Romans.

 

I wonder if he knows that Boudica was reported to have had women captives mutilated in some pretty horrific ways as well as executing entire communities.  

 

 

He should consider being a political reporter, and not a column filler


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