Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#1919964 15-Dec-2017 07:23

Geektastic:
MikeB4: The train services in Wellington are very good.

Good one. The train "services" on the Wairarapa line are a complete disgrace, with lower punctuality than most trains I have used in developing countries.

They are almost always late, three days out of 5 last week my wife reported no air conditioning in the carriages and having to stand most of the journey several days as well despite paying almost $400/month for her ticket and they still rely on doddering oldies punching pretty holes in cardboard tickets rather than any form of modern ticketing system/

"very good" are not words I would employ when talking about that train 'service' - ignoring the fact that the lazy ******** were inconveniencing every user by going on strike the other day as well.

The Wairarapa is a siding. You have to admit based on your posting history you don’t believe we do anything right in NZ and from your post one would assume it’s a miracle we created this nation or it even survives.

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6FIEND

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#1920000 15-Dec-2017 08:53

The frequency with which some use ad hominem attacks and accusations of bias to wilfully dismiss substantiated facts and observations in this thread is disheartening.

Nevermind providing a counter-argument or demonstrating evidence that supports a position... Nah, just claim that the other party is a closed-minded partisan stooge and that because of your assertion their viewpoint must be invalid. Move along...

(For the record - and I've said this in other threads - While I voted for National at the last election, that was the first time (in about 20yrs)that I've ever voted for them.)

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#1920009 15-Dec-2017 09:16

6FIEND:

The frequency with which some use ad hominem attacks and accusations of bias to wilfully dismiss substantiated facts and observations in this thread is disheartening.

Nevermind providing a counter-argument or demonstrating evidence that supports a position... Nah, just claim that the other party is a closed-minded partisan stooge and that because of your assertion their viewpoint must be invalid. Move along...

(For the record - and I've said this in other threads - While I voted for National at the last election, that was the first time (in about 20yrs)that I've ever voted for them.)

I agree, but it is from both sides.

Rikkitic

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#1920066 15-Dec-2017 10:38

6FIEND:

The frequency with which some use ad hominem attacks and accusations of bias to wilfully dismiss substantiated facts and observations in this thread is disheartening.

Nevermind providing a counter-argument or demonstrating evidence that supports a position... Nah, just claim that the other party is a closed-minded partisan stooge and that because of your assertion their viewpoint must be invalid. Move along...

(For the record - and I've said this in other threads - While I voted for National at the last election, that was the first time (in about 20yrs)that I've ever voted for them.)

Attacks aside, I sometimes get weary of excessive demands for evidence. If someone wants to know something in detail, they ought to be perfectly capable of researching it themselves. In any case, positions are formed for all kinds of reasons. Often it can be something as simple as ‘this feels right, that doesn’t’. Someone can hold a perfectly valid opinion, without having 20 pages of footnote references to back it up.

Not everyone has academic qualifications in every subject they hold opinions on. Apart from that, Google makes it very easy to find a biased propaganda piece by someone with a particular ideological slant. I am not especially impressed by quotations or links to this or that. Whenever I have actually followed a link to its ultimate source, it has usually proven to be someone on one side or the other spouting more prejudiced opinion disguised as authoritative fact. In the electronic age, impressive-looking quotes are cheap and simple. Real evidence requires dedicated research and I usually do not have the time or motivation for that. All quotes do is demonstrate that your opinion is shared by others. Of course, I have also made extensive use of this.

Genuine 'substantiated facts' are another matter, but even those are subject to interpretation, and that leads to more opinion. So agree with me or disagree. Your opinion is every bit as valid as mine. But unless you hold a degree in the subject you are opinionating on, and maybe even then, it remains just an opinion.

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#1920079 15-Dec-2017 11:00

Pumpedd:

If it wasnt for the last Government Wellington would still be trying to run 100 year old trains.(slight exaggeration). Now they are modern and have become extremely expensive to ride.

Regional Council has continually played with fares making them overly expensive. $100 for a 10 trip now from Kapiti to Wellington..so $20/day.

The Wellington suburban rail services are very good. As others have said, it's clean, reliable, and cheaper than running a car every day.

Even better, it costs me nothing when I use them. Thanks Winston.

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#1920080 15-Dec-2017 11:01

MikeB4:

You have to admit based on your posting history you don’t believe we do anything right in NZ and from your post one would assume it’s a miracle we created this nation or it even survives.

C'mon Mike, you are better than that.

6FIEND

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#1920088 15-Dec-2017 11:19

@Rikkitic

I'm not sure where this fixation on academic qualification is coming from? I've never cited mine, nor ever claimed any authority on account of any academic qualification. (In fact, I consider that to be one of the more ineffective ways to argue a point)

I prefer the use of "facts" and "evidence" because it transcends bias and reflects reality. (Eg. It is a matter of historic record that Ardern lost every single Electorate vote that she contested in a General Election before the last election. It is also a matter of fact that earlier this year she publicly stated that she was struggling with the Deputy Leader role and was "growing into it" and "Never" wanted to be Prime Minister. I use these objective facts to form subjective opinions (In this case, my opinion that she is significantly out of her depth.)

Relying on academic qualifications as justification is a terrible way to make a point.

I might have a PhD in Veterinary Science and use that as authority to claim that Unicorns exist... You should rightly rubbish my assertion.
Likewise, if Steven Joyce points out something that is provably true, you would be unwise to argue against it just because it was Joyce who said it.

networkn

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#1920093 15-Dec-2017 11:22

6FIEND:

@Rikkitic

I'm not sure where this fixation on academic qualification is coming from? I've never cited mine, nor ever claimed any authority on account of any academic qualification. (In fact, I consider that to be one of the more ineffective ways to argue a point)

I prefer the use of "facts" and "evidence" because it transcends bias and reflects reality. (Eg. It is a matter of historic record that Ardern lost every single Electorate vote that she contested in a General Election before the last election. It is also a matter of fact that earlier this year she publicly stated that she was struggling with the Deputy Leader role and was "growing into it" and "Never" wanted to be Prime Minister. I use these objective facts to form subjective opinions (In this case, my opinion that she is significantly out of her depth.)

Relying on academic qualifications as justification is a terrible way to make a point.

I might have a PhD in Veterinary Science and use that as authority to claim that Unicorns exist... You should rightly rubbish my assertion.
Likewise, if Steven Joyce points out something that is provably true, you would be unwise to argue against it just because it was Joyce who said it.

Another excellent post. Eloquently put.

MikeB4

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#1920104 15-Dec-2017 11:42

networkn:
MikeB4:

You have to admit based on your posting history you don’t believe we do anything right in NZ and from your post one would assume it’s a miracle we created this nation or it even survives.

C'mon Mike, you are better than that.

I agree with you and 6FIEND it was a very poor post on my part. I am in too much pain these last few weeks and probably should not be posting, but it serves as a distraction. Maybe I should take a break and up the pain meds.

Rikkitic

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#1920109 15-Dec-2017 11:50

6FIEND:

I'm not sure where this fixation on academic qualification is coming from? I've never cited mine, nor ever claimed any authority on account of any academic qualification. (In fact, I consider that to be one of the more ineffective ways to argue a point)

I prefer the use of "facts" and "evidence" because it transcends bias and reflects reality. (Eg. It is a matter of historic record that Ardern lost every single Electorate vote that she contested in a General Election before the last election. It is also a matter of fact that earlier this year she publicly stated that she was struggling with the Deputy Leader role and was "growing into it" and "Never" wanted to be Prime Minister. I use these objective facts to form subjective opinions (In this case, my opinion that she is significantly out of her depth.)

Relying on academic qualifications as justification is a terrible way to make a point.

I might have a PhD in Veterinary Science and use that as authority to claim that Unicorns exist... You should rightly rubbish my assertion.
Likewise, if Steven Joyce points out something that is provably true, you would be unwise to argue against it just because it was Joyce who said it.

I am not fixated on academic qualifications. I was merely using that by way of illustration.

I don't dispute the facts you have cited in regard to Jacinda Ardern. Everything you say is a matter of public record and known to be true. I might hold a different opinion as to the significance of these facts. According to what I have read recently (I don't have the sources at hand but if you insist, I will look for them), she is performing quite well in the job. I'm sure there are other sources that say precisely the opposite, but nothing I have seen so far persuades me of that.

If Steven Joyce points out something that actually is true, I would be happy to accept it, even coming from him. According to the latest I have heard, his assertions about multi-billion dollar holes in Labour's budget plans have been definitively placed in the porkie bin now that the books have been opened. Apparently Labour's budget, even with all the cash giveaways, has been deemed fiscally responsible by those who are supposed to know about these kinds of things. Joyce and English are predictably saying how tight it is, and how little room it leaves for the unexpected, but what else would they say?

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rjt123

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#1920111 15-Dec-2017 11:51

MikeB4:

A homeless person does not need more motorways or more aircraft with roundels, someone on an ever increasing waiting list does not need more motorways or more aircraft with roundels , a child in an over crowded classroom does not need more motorways or more aircraft with roundels, a child going to school with inadequate clothing and hungry does not need more motorways or more aircraft with roundels, multiple families living in one house or in a garage does not need more motorways or more aircraft with roundels, victims of domestic violence or victims our appalling child abuse does not need more motorways or more aircraft with roundels.

Nationals main priority was for increasing wealth when more and more New Zealanders needed a warm home, a dry bed, a safe house, not to be hungry and able to see a doctor. The Western ring or the Kapiti expressway means nothing to a hungry child walking to school with leaking or no shoes.

The government can subsidise school shoes to ensure every child has them. The government can make GP visits free to ensure everybody can get good healthcare. The government can pour endless money into housing, benefits, subsidies but does that fix the problem? Homelessness is the result of a bad choice in life (or almost always). Poverty is the result of a bad choice in life (or almost always). Sending your child to school with no breakfast or lunch or shoes etc. is probably the result of a bad choice of the parents (how much money did they spend on cigarettes, drugs, alcohol on the weekend?). Is it my responsibility as a tax payer to fund the poor choices of those individuals?

And do we expect the homeless person to remain in poverty all their life? No, there's no point the government investing in that person just for them to remain on the street, they should be able to one day have a home, own a car, have a family, knowing they can drive safely on the roads (and knowing the government has their back in the event of war)

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#1920117 15-Dec-2017 11:55

MikeB4:
networkn:

MikeB4:

You have to admit based on your posting history you don’t believe we do anything right in NZ and from your post one would assume it’s a miracle we created this nation or it even survives.

C'mon Mike, you are better than that.

I agree with you and 6FIEND it was a very poor post on my part. I am in too much pain these last few weeks and probably should not be posting, but it serves as a distraction. Maybe I should take a break and up the pain meds.

Its Xmas Mike..do what you like doing.

tdgeek

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#1920126 15-Dec-2017 12:02

Pumpedd:

MikeB4:
networkn:

MikeB4:

You have to admit based on your posting history you don’t believe we do anything right in NZ and from your post one would assume it’s a miracle we created this nation or it even survives.

C'mon Mike, you are better than that.

I agree with you and 6FIEND it was a very poor post on my part. I am in too much pain these last few weeks and probably should not be posting, but it serves as a distraction. Maybe I should take a break and up the pain meds.

Its Xmas Mike..do what you like doing.

yes. And Mikes post wasn't aimed at any regulars here, it was at another slightly less frequent poster here, the one that doesn't like kids, without naming names. Maybe that is already realised, just saying so if it isn't

6FIEND

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#1920133 15-Dec-2017 12:07

Take it easy Mike - we all have good and bad days. hope you're feeling better soon!

Rikkitic - great response. Obviously we are interpreting things differently and I disagree with your conclusion, but that's politics :-)

Aside (just because I can't help myself) Joyce's "11bn hole" claims actually look to be validated by the HYEFU & Mini budget. The "fiscal hole" sound-bite that the media ran with was inaccurate. Joyce clarified after the fact that he was talking about allocated funds that are normally set aside for budget announcements for the remainder of the parliamentary term being missed - but the story had it's own narrative by then. What we see in the announcement yesterday is that Labour have "spent the lot" and there is only enough for about $600m extra spending in each budget from here until the 2020 election. (That's got to cover all Public Sector payrises, all new policy announcements, etc for the next 3 years.) To provide some context for that, the average amount that the previous Labour government allocated for those purposes was about $2.5bn. extra spending each year. (The Last National Govt had it at about $1.5bn)

So - the cupboard is already almost bare, and if economic growth slips at all (Eg. by cutting back on immigration) then we may find ourselves going backwards rapidly.

Whether or not that proves Joyce was right or wrong is probably a matter of opinion... but I'm more "concerned" than "relaxed" about how it's playing out.

tdgeek

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#1920136 15-Dec-2017 12:18

6FIEND:

Take it easy Mike - we all have good and bad days. hope you're feeling better soon!

Rikkitic - great response. Obviously we are interpreting things differently and I disagree with your conclusion, but that's politics :-)

Aside (just because I can't help myself) Joyce's "11bn hole" claims actually look to be validated by the HYEFU & Mini budget. The "fiscal hole" sound-bite that the media ran with was inaccurate. Joyce clarified after the fact that he was talking about allocated funds that are normally set aside for budget announcements for the remainder of the parliamentary term being missed - but the story had it's own narrative by then. What we see in the announcement yesterday is that Labour have "spent the lot" and there is only enough for about $600m extra spending in each budget from here until the 2020 election. (That's got to cover all Public Sector payrises, all new policy announcements, etc for the next 3 years.) To provide some context for that, the average amount that the previous Labour government allocated for those purposes was about $2.5bn. extra spending each year. (The Last National Govt had it at about $1.5bn)

So - the cupboard is already almost bare, and if economic growth slips at all (Eg. by cutting back on immigration) then we may find ourselves going backwards rapidly.

Whether or not that proves Joyce was right or wrong is probably a matter of opinion... but I'm more "concerned" than "relaxed" about how it's playing out.

What I read at that time was that the allocation of future funds (or whatever they called it) was located in a different section of the financial breakdown document. Also named differently. With the subsequent attention, and that they said it was fully validated, I find it a stretch that one person noticed 11 bill is missing when everyone else including the validators didn't? Joyce spelled out what it was, and they stated where it was in the document.

Labour is spending more, we all know that, National will have spent less, and had more spare. Its been known for a while that Labour are running closer, and Robertson said that just the other day. They will set priorities, some things will be towards the end, others sooner. But, yes, less wiggle room for sure.

As to why does Labour spend more, thats another subject. Are they catching up deferred spending too quickly? Are they giving cash away too much? Are they wasting money?

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