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  Reply # 1939763 16-Jan-2018 14:39
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6FIEND:

 

Just to note: NZ business confidence drops on Labour policy concerns 

 

It is entirely coincidental that this story was just published :-)

 

 

I posted that earlier. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1939765 16-Jan-2018 14:41
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networkn:

 

I knew that was coming. I could have written it for you.

 

 

I'm glad we know each other so well. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1939768 16-Jan-2018 14:48
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Rikkitic:

 

I don't think having business experience automatically confers wisdom. It may or may not give competence at being in business, but I see no reason why there should be any expectation that it makes one any good at politics. Politicians are tasked with seeing the big picture, not just what favours business interests. Maybe they are good at that, maybe they are not, but I reject the presumption that they are somehow inherently better if they come from the right wing of politics.

 

The government has extensive resources at its disposal. Ministers have advisers. They have entire departments tasked with this. They do not lack for business world expertise. Not having had a long career in business does not mean one cannot make sensible decisions about business interests. I think this is a red herring. If Ministers don't listen to their advisers, that is another matter. But it just means they are bad at their job. I do not believe that lack of business experience disqualifies one from holding a position of government leadership.

 

 

 

 

Its not so much that they are lacking business sense, but more commercial sense. There seems to be a lack of weighing up pro's and cons with their decisions and to hell with the consequences. There was definitely some social spending needed in some areas (national agreed with this during the campaign). but they need to think things through a little more.


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  Reply # 1939774 16-Jan-2018 14:51
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Pumpedd:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I don't think having business experience automatically confers wisdom. It may or may not give competence at being in business, but I see no reason why there should be any expectation that it makes one any good at politics. Politicians are tasked with seeing the big picture, not just what favours business interests. Maybe they are good at that, maybe they are not, but I reject the presumption that they are somehow inherently better if they come from the right wing of politics.

 

The government has extensive resources at its disposal. Ministers have advisers. They have entire departments tasked with this. They do not lack for business world expertise. Not having had a long career in business does not mean one cannot make sensible decisions about business interests. I think this is a red herring. If Ministers don't listen to their advisers, that is another matter. But it just means they are bad at their job. I do not believe that lack of business experience disqualifies one from holding a position of government leadership.

 

 

 

 

Its not so much that they are lacking business sense, but more commercial sense. There seems to be a lack of weighing up pro's and cons with their decisions and to hell with the consequences. There was definitely some social spending needed in some areas (national agreed with this during the campaign). but they need to think things through a little more.

 

 

They need(ed) to think things through a LOT more. Like twice or more as much as they did. It was like they hired a marketing company to come up with trendy and likely popular ideas and then spat them out. 

 

JA and her amazing tax policy, that should have given people pause. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1939800 16-Jan-2018 15:11
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networkn:

 

6FIEND:

 

Just to note: NZ business confidence drops on Labour policy concerns 

 

It is entirely coincidental that this story was just published :-)

 

 

I posted that earlier. 

 

 

 

 

Business confidence goes up and down as often as the tide, the up and downs of the tide make sense, business confidence ups and downs does not.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1939801 16-Jan-2018 15:12
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Pumpedd:

 

 

 

Its not so much that they are lacking business sense, but more commercial sense. There seems to be a lack of weighing up pro's and cons with their decisions and to hell with the consequences. There was definitely some social spending needed in some areas (national agreed with this during the campaign). but they need to think things through a little more.

 

 

 

 

If the wheels of government worked that way.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1939804 16-Jan-2018 15:13
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MikeB4:

 

networkn:

 

6FIEND:

 

Just to note: NZ business confidence drops on Labour policy concerns 

 

It is entirely coincidental that this story was just published :-)

 

 

I posted that earlier. 

 

 

 

 

Business confidence goes up and down as often as the tide, the up and downs of the tide make sense, business confidence ups and downs does not.

 

 

Umm what?!


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  Reply # 1939917 16-Jan-2018 16:59
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MikeB4:

Business confidence goes up and down as often as the tide, the up and downs of the tide make sense, business confidence ups and downs does not.



Making sense is subjective to the reader. It makes sense to me, maybe not to you. Which is why the argument has been made that a government needs experience and knowledge in all areas: experience in business so they understand things like 'business confidence' and also knowledge of other areas, education, transport/logistics, defense... Etc.

But by that token, does benefit experience (e.g. have been on the the dole) qualify you for job as minister of social development? #meteriaturei

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  Reply # 1939918 16-Jan-2018 17:03
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rjt123:
MikeB4:

 

Business confidence goes up and down as often as the tide, the up and downs of the tide make sense, business confidence ups and downs does not.

 



Making sense is subjective to the reader. It makes sense to me, maybe not to you. Which is why the argument has been made that a government needs experience and knowledge in all areas: experience in business so they understand things like 'business confidence' and also knowledge of other areas, education, transport/logistics, defense... Etc.

But by that token, does benefit experience (e.g. have been on the the dole) qualify you for job as minister of social development? #meteriaturei

 

 

 

1. I understand the business survey and the employee optimism survey, I just do not believe they mean much.

 

2. Ministers do not make decisions in isolation they have many advisors.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1940056 16-Jan-2018 18:14
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6FIEND:

 

Rikkitic:

 

So what are you actually saying here? That no-one who does not fit the big business mould can ever be competent in government? That only conservatives obsessed with making money are fit to rule? That those who place human values above profit can never successfully run a country? I find that a pretty narrow and depressing world view. I also think it is wrong.

 

 

No.

 

Those are your words - not mine.  (And for the record, I also believe them to be wrong)

 

 

 

However, in my opinion, the three most important functions of Government are:

 

1) To protect its people  (Defence, Law & Order, National Security, Etc.)  In this respect, the Government is/should be responsible for actually delivering outcomes.  Employing Police, Border Control, etc.

 

2) To care for its people (Education, Health, Social Services)  In this respect, the Government is/should be responsible for actually delivering outcomes.  Employing Teachers, Nurses etc. and providing facilities such as Schools, Hospitals, Etc.

 

3) To manage the economy  (Trade, Business, Jobs, Growth, Etc.)  In this respect, the Government is/should be responsible for managing a framework to enable the private sector to deliver the outcomes.  a.k.a. adjusting the levers of power.  The extent to which a government should actively intervene in the marketplace is a fundamental debate between the political left & right - but that's not what I'm talking about here... 

 

[Note:  The success of 3) directly impacts the ability to deliver points 1) & 2) ]

 

What I'm actually saying here is that there is a significant imbalance in the collective "experience" of Labour's front bench.  The private sector accounts for roughly 75% of the economy.  Yet over 75% of Labour's front bench have no experience operating in it.  (And now they're expected to govern it.)

 

This inevitably leads to scenario's like the one presently being discussed where Labour (a) increase the demand on student accommodation be providing free study and (b) increase the students' ability to pay for it by increasing allowances by $50pw and then (c) being seemingly surprised by the fact that rents for students have skyrocketed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

John, who I have met, made his money on FX, millions, in HKG. Bill who I have not met, but I provided PC's for his secretary and office a long time ago, is well qualifies, but his business experience is he went farming for a few years. I was brought up on a farm. Its a long way from delivering budgets, as are MANY businesses, so show me the B.Govt degree that all Nat MP's have , or anyone for that matter 


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  Reply # 1940058 16-Jan-2018 18:20
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6FIEND:

 

resently being discussed where Labour (a) increase the demand on student accommodation be providing free study and (b) increase the students' ability to pay for it by increasing allowances by $50pw and then (c) being seemingly surprised by the fact that rents for students have skyrocketed.

 

 

 

 

Talk to the landlords. One here. and I have been one, said he put the rent up cos he can. 

 

Housing crisis. Just because a Govt, takes an action, you hone in on the cause and effect. So student allowances went up by $50 a week, so students and everyone else now pays $50 per week extra per person?

 

The previous Govt, who I almost always voted for, denied there was a housing crisis. Even on debate 2 or 3. "Its stabilised now" (As it always does thru winter and an election, everybody knows that). That Govt didnt do anything, so housing prices are thru the roof.  Rents follow. Thats cause and effect by doing nothing


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  Reply # 1940063 16-Jan-2018 18:22
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Pumpedd:

 

I think the Government legislating warm and dry houses for the rental sector is a good thing. My concern is degree. The landlords should only be forced to do reasonable changes to the property eg underfloor(where it is reasonably possible) and ceiling. Expecting landlords to retrofit double glazing and insulate walls is crazy.

 

I also expect landlords to be able to make a reasonable return on investment, like any other business model, so taxation should apply.

 

On the side of the coin tenants can be disgusting, they never let the house breath or ventilate and when this happens mold will always occur. 

 

Tenants have a choice to rent a property or not. Thats how it should be.

 

When landlords have really good tenants I have seen them look after those tenants with more reasonable rent.

 

 

I agree fully. Twyford quoted was it 3k to 5k? I assumed, that is floor if possible, and ceiling. Walls is expensive (I know that for a fact) So that cant be right, but feel free to correct me. I understood it was ceiling, floors, if doable and heat pump. 5k does that


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  Reply # 1940064 16-Jan-2018 18:25
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rjt123:
tdgeek:

 

rjt123:
tdgeek:

 

 

 

Well, its a pity that a law to ensure houses are warm and dry means the Govt is bad

 

 

 



I believe you are misconstruing the conversation...

It's not bad that the government has ideals for warm and dry homes. Even legislating for it isn't bad in itself, though I feel it might have unintended and unwanted consequences. What is bad is that the government is almost seeming to treat landlords as a social welfare provider whereas it's just a business. Whoever is providing a rental is simply in the business of rental accommodation, and in business in the long term you get paid for your product/service relative to the quality of the product/service that you provide. It's not the job of the rental owners to lift the level of living standards for NZ

 

 

 

Its the job of a Govt to provide a minimum level of standards in society. This is why you buy food that is labelled, rules and regulations across any product or service that you can name to ensure you are not being tricked or ripped off . Nothing to do with social support. Compliance for building and many and so ons. Ensuring that rented housing is compliant with a base level of heating and insulation is just another modern society benefit. Adds to quality of life, reduces future and current health costs. It is just a simple means that a modern society can live in, nothing more. Or we can remove many such regulations across many products and services and be a third world country full of poor practices and conditions  

 



I agree in principle with what you are saying. However, if a landlord decided that they didn't want to invest in insulation etc and decided to sell the house and a family purchased it then they are allowed to live in it in whatever state it is , with little or no insulation etc.

Would the government regulate to force home-owners to improve the standard of their homes? No all they have done is provided a subsidy for insulation etc which is a good thing, has created both an awareness and transformed the industry, probably bringing down costs.

What I don't agree with is the government's assumption that business can absorb whatever regulatory cost they throw at them. They (and many of their supporters ) have a mindset that a business owner is "rich". In reality many are scraping by and survive by sheer hard work. Tbh I don't actually really care about these new regulations. It's their lack of business experience ( as mentioned in the posts above) and the resulting policy that ignores the value of a strong private business sector to the economy that I care about.

 

I dont exeat a landlord to absorb it. Rents will rise, as does the health and cost of heating decreases. Renters have no choice. Buyers have a choice. And generally, not always , renters are on a lower socio-economic income


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  Reply # 1940065 16-Jan-2018 18:29
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MikeAqua:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I don't think having business experience automatically confers wisdom. It may or may not give competence at being in business, but I see no reason why there should be any expectation that it makes one any good at politics. Politicians are tasked with seeing the big picture, not just what favours business interests. Maybe they are good at that, maybe they are not, but I reject the presumption that they are somehow inherently better if they come from the right wing of politics.

 

The government has extensive resources at its disposal. Ministers have advisers. They have entire departments tasked with this. They do not lack for business world expertise. Not having had a long career in business does not mean one cannot make sensible decisions about business interests. I think this is a red herring. If Ministers don't listen to their advisers, that is another matter. But it just means they are bad at their job. I do not believe that lack of business experience disqualifies one from holding a position of government leadership.

 

 

I'd like to see senior ministers have some real-world senior management experience or previous experience in a more junior ministerial portfolio. 

 

In particular I don't think someone who had never been in government or in a senior position anywhere should be prime minister.  But ... there are no compulsory qualifications for prime minister, so here we are.

 

The trouble with govt dept advisers is that most of them are career bureaucrats with minimal real world experience.  So it's the blind advising the blind.  Or worse the advisers are political creatures who lack subject matter expertise (an increasing problem in the public service) and don't then give ministers technically competent and frank advice.

 

 

How could JK be PM? JA has been in politics for was it 17 years? JK got in as he is very wealthy, got out. JK  is great, I liked him, but he was ONLY the leader, talking the talk, so pony tail pulling wasnt an issue, nor was teabags with disgraced MP Banks. Others did the work, i.e. BE etc, JK did the talk. 


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  Reply # 1940068 16-Jan-2018 18:32
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rjt123:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I don't think having business experience automatically confers wisdom. It may or may not give competence at being in business, but I see no reason why there should be any expectation that it makes one any good at politics. Politicians are tasked with seeing the big picture, not just what favours business interests. Maybe they are good at that, maybe they are not, but I reject the presumption that they are somehow inherently better if they come from the right wing of politics.

 

The government has extensive resources at its disposal. Ministers have advisers. They have entire departments tasked with this. They do not lack for business world expertise. Not having had a long career in business does not mean one cannot make sensible decisions about business interests. I think this is a red herring. If Ministers don't listen to their advisers, that is another matter. But it just means they are bad at their job. I do not believe that lack of business experience disqualifies one from holding a position of government leadership.

 

 

 

 

A lack of business experience in no way precludes somebody from politics or makes them less apt for representing our country in government. However, the point was the distinct lack of business experience in Labour's front bench. I believe a good government needs a balance of both. That doesn't necessarily mean having owned a business, but ideally having had some role in management at some level, or interaction with management to understand how business really works.

 

Yes, ministers have advisers, but if the ministers can't understand why their advisers take a certain point of view or why they make a certain suggestion then they are far less likely to believe it, or that adviser will be dismissed and another one with more acceptable 'ideals' will be found. Also, ministers need to be able to think on their own at some points. E.g. in question time. Also, if almost the entire cabinet lacks business experience their general bent of the government is going to be less business friendly than I think is 'healthy'.

 

There is value in other qualifications other than 'business experience' and there needs to be balance - but there is no substitute for experience.

 

 

 

 

What experience? Fish n Chip shop? Dairy? Farm? Cycle dealer? IT person? None of this helps anyone lead a country. And the fact is the leader doesn't lead the country they are the spokes person, foillowing advice from MANY. Thats what many here lose sight of. Otherwise no one could be a PM


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