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517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1945911 24-Jan-2018 10:50
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http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11980912

Credit where credit's due. The virtue of this agreement is severely limited now that the US has pulled out, but glad labour are still signing it.

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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1945998 24-Jan-2018 12:54
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rjt123: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11980912

Credit where credit's due. The virtue of this agreement is severely limited now that the US has pulled out, but glad labour are still signing it.

 

Indeed.

 

Interesting though how people don't seen to be marching in the streets complaining that we're giving away our sovereignty this time.

 

Is that because it's Labour doing the deal?  (Like they did with the China FTA) Or is it because the US is no longer part of the agreement?

 

Or both?


 
 
 
 


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  # 1946007 24-Jan-2018 13:06
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6FIEND:

 

rjt123: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11980912

Credit where credit's due. The virtue of this agreement is severely limited now that the US has pulled out, but glad labour are still signing it.

 

Indeed.

 

Interesting though how people don't seen to be marching in the streets complaining that we're giving away our sovereignty this time.

 

Is that because it's Labour doing the deal?  (Like they did with the China FTA) Or is it because the US is no longer part of the agreement?

 

Or both?

 

 

 

 

Much more likely that the press hasn't been all over it, and people haven't worked themselves into a rabbid frenzy over nothing. 

 

 


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  # 1946012 24-Jan-2018 13:25
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6FIEND:

 

rjt123: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11980912

Credit where credit's due. The virtue of this agreement is severely limited now that the US has pulled out, but glad labour are still signing it.

 

Indeed.

 

Interesting though how people don't seen to be marching in the streets complaining that we're giving away our sovereignty this time.

 

Is that because it's Labour doing the deal?  (Like they did with the China FTA) Or is it because the US is no longer part of the agreement?

 

Or both?

 

 

Since American corporations are perceived, with some justification, as grasping, immoral entities that will do anything to maximise their profits regardless of the cost to others, I would think it is probably because the USA is no longer part of it.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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Master Geek


  # 1946040 24-Jan-2018 14:09
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USA single-handedly puts out 25% of world economic output. Other TPP nations totally come close to 15% or less. A free trade access to USA market was the main selling point of the deal. Without USA at the table, it isn't much of a winning deal. 

 

As a reference, the previous FTA with China in 2008 quadrupled our exports since 2008 when the deal was signed. China puts out 15% of the total economic output.


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Master Geek


  # 1946041 24-Jan-2018 14:10
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What's annoying here is JA claiming that the new TPP is way better than what national negotiated.. yeah right! 


gzt

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  # 1946057 24-Jan-2018 14:39
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mrfte:

What's annoying here is JA claiming that the new TPP is way better than what national negotiated.. yeah right! 


There are changes, yes. Way better is kind of debatable depending on your perspective.

 
 
 
 


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Master Geek


  # 1946060 24-Jan-2018 14:46
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If one were to blindly follow JA's made-up political claptrap.. then it's all sunshine and rainbows.


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Ultimate Geek


  # 1946073 24-Jan-2018 15:18
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mrfte:

 

What's annoying here is JA claiming that the new TPP is way better than what national negotiated.. yeah right! 

 

 

Fully 22 provisions of the original TPP agreement have been suspended, up from 20 frozen in November last year. These provisions include controversial pharmaceutical changes and would only be reactivated after renegotiations and if the United States re-entered the pact.

 

It is a far better deal than the one National had accepted.  

 

-------------------

 

Labour opposed the TPP in opposition, but after negotiating some changes to controversial Investor State Dispute (ISDS) clauses, which allow companies to sue countries, now supports the CPTPP in government.

 

Companies will no longer be able to sue the Government over contract decisions. A redacted version of the negotiating mandate is available here.

 

Ardern said the new agreement was a "damned sight better" than what was previously offered.

Ratifying the deal will not require a parliamentary vote, but will require implementation legislation. A parliamentary process involving select committees will likely take place for both ratification and the implementation legislation.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/100831653/New-look-TPP-to-be-signed-in-March?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

 

 

It had Labour's five bottom lines: retaining the Government's right to regulate in the public interest without being successfully sued; preserving Pharmac; the right to act under the Treaty of Waitangi; sufficient tariff reductions; and the right to ban house sales to foreign-based investors.
-------------------

They have fixed the main issue (above) and the pharmaceutical issues that I had with the TPPA, something that National wouldn't do. 
National just accepted as negotiated, and often said there was no need to make any changes at all. 

 

I note that National agrees with will be voting with the government to support these changes to the TPPA. Why didn't they negotiate the changes themselves when they were the government? I seem to remember they said they cant make the changes, or renegotiate the agreement because New Zealand was just too small and only a minor party to renegotiate any such changes.

 

 


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  # 1946076 24-Jan-2018 15:25
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MaxLV:

 

 

 

I note that National agrees with will be voting with the government to support these changes to the TPPA. Why didn't they negotiate the changes themselves when they were the government? I seem to remember they said they cant make the changes, or renegotiate the agreement because New Zealand was just too small and only a minor party to renegotiate any such changes.

 

 

 

 

You have conveniently forgotten that the US was part of the negotiations when they were part of the TPP and had the VAST majority of the bargaining power. It was them that opposed those changes primarily. 

 

When the US reneged on the deal, the entire negotiation changed. A lot of countries had a fair bit to lose, and this gave us extra weight. 

 

JA didn't do anything particularly special, the die was set already for us to be able to make additional demands. 

 

Let's not forget that she made a fool of herself at the East Asian Summit which she later said she regretted.

 

Why would National oppose it? Unlike Labour, National doesn't seem set to oppose, just for the sake of it. 

 

 


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Master Geek


  # 1946079 24-Jan-2018 15:27
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Companies could sue the government way before the TPP was even conceived as a thought.

 

There was a minor increase in the operational cost to pharmac ($2M per year) if I recall from the top of my head which was offset by the trade surplus NZ would achieve. 

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1946102 24-Jan-2018 16:02
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MaxLV:

 

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

 

 

Free trade agreements are disgustingly conservative - TPP included. I wonder if that puts both Labour and National voters into the "modern conservative" category? ....just saying


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  # 1946105 24-Jan-2018 16:24
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rjt123:

 

MaxLV:

 

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

 

 

Free trade agreements are disgustingly conservative - TPP included. I wonder if that puts both Labour and National voters into the "modern conservative" category? ....just saying

 

 

I don't think FTA's are "conservative" - they're more from classical liberalism.

 

Anyway - here's the entire quote:

 

 

The modern conservative is not even especially modern. He is engaged, on the contrary, in one of man’s oldest, best financed, most applauded, and, on the whole, least successful exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. It is an exercise which always involves a certain number of internal contradictions and even a few absurdities. The conspicuously wealthy turn up urging the character-building value of privation for the poor. The man who has struck it rich in minerals, oil, or other bounties of nature is found explaining the debilitating effect of unearned income from the state. The corporate executive who is a superlative success as an organization man weighs in on the evils of bureaucracy. Federal aid to education is feared by those who live in suburbs that could easily forgo this danger, and by people whose children are in *public schools. Socialized medicine is condemned by men emerging from Walter Reed Hospital. Social Security is viewed with alarm by those who have the comfortable cushion of an inherited income. Those who are immediately threatened by public efforts to meet their needs — whether widows, small farmers, hospitalized veterans, or the unemployed — are almost always oblivious to the danger.

 

*presumably UK (= private)

 

 

 

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1946174 24-Jan-2018 16:49
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Fred99:

 

rjt123:

 

MaxLV:

 

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

 

 

Free trade agreements are disgustingly conservative - TPP included. I wonder if that puts both Labour and National voters into the "modern conservative" category? ....just saying

 

 

I don't think FTA's are "conservative" - they're more from classical liberalism.

 

Anyway - here's the entire quote:

 

 

The modern conservative is not even especially modern. He is engaged, on the contrary, in one of man’s oldest, best financed, most applauded, and, on the whole, least successful exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. It is an exercise which always involves a certain number of internal contradictions and even a few absurdities. The conspicuously wealthy turn up urging the character-building value of privation for the poor. The man who has struck it rich in minerals, oil, or other bounties of nature is found explaining the debilitating effect of unearned income from the state. The corporate executive who is a superlative success as an organization man weighs in on the evils of bureaucracy. Federal aid to education is feared by those who live in suburbs that could easily forgo this danger, and by people whose children are in *public schools. Socialized medicine is condemned by men emerging from Walter Reed Hospital. Social Security is viewed with alarm by those who have the comfortable cushion of an inherited income. Those who are immediately threatened by public efforts to meet their needs — whether widows, small farmers, hospitalized veterans, or the unemployed — are almost always oblivious to the danger.

 

*presumably UK (= private)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess we can both breathe a sigh of relief then neither of us fall into the dreaded "modern conservative" bracket. My views tend toward Liberal conservatism.

 

It's an interesting quote but disturbingly stereotypical assumption you are making for this day and age.


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  # 1946201 24-Jan-2018 17:35
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rjt123:

 

Fred99:

 

rjt123:

 

MaxLV:

 

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

 

 

Free trade agreements are disgustingly conservative - TPP included. I wonder if that puts both Labour and National voters into the "modern conservative" category? ....just saying

 

 

I don't think FTA's are "conservative" - they're more from classical liberalism.

 

Anyway - here's the entire quote:

 

 

The modern conservative is not even especially modern. He is engaged, on the contrary, in one of man’s oldest, best financed, most applauded, and, on the whole, least successful exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. It is an exercise which always involves a certain number of internal contradictions and even a few absurdities. The conspicuously wealthy turn up urging the character-building value of privation for the poor. The man who has struck it rich in minerals, oil, or other bounties of nature is found explaining the debilitating effect of unearned income from the state. The corporate executive who is a superlative success as an organization man weighs in on the evils of bureaucracy. Federal aid to education is feared by those who live in suburbs that could easily forgo this danger, and by people whose children are in *public schools. Socialized medicine is condemned by men emerging from Walter Reed Hospital. Social Security is viewed with alarm by those who have the comfortable cushion of an inherited income. Those who are immediately threatened by public efforts to meet their needs — whether widows, small farmers, hospitalized veterans, or the unemployed — are almost always oblivious to the danger.

 

*presumably UK (= private)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I guess we can both breathe a sigh of relief then neither of us fall into the dreaded "modern conservative" bracket. My views tend toward Liberal conservatism.

 

It's an interesting quote but disturbingly stereotypical assumption you are making for this day and age.

 

 

I didn't quote it.

 

I do think it's a valid observation - eloquently expressed. Of course behaving out of self-interest isn't limited to the "well to do", but one should be aware that the privileged often have the power and influence to extend further privilege to the privileged.  Democracy should be able to check that - or we'll end up living in a world like Game of Thrones - and most of us will be servants, serfs, slaves - just like the good old times.

 

The solution - take an interest in how things work, and always vote.


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