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5434 posts

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  # 1953497 8-Feb-2018 09:40
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GV27:

 

Yea, let's ignore things like massive letting fees and bonds, if the poors want better accomodation they should just rent somewhere better. Absolutely no barriers to overcome there! 

 

 

We seem to have tenancy system that neither tenants nor landlords are happy with. 

 

Landlords would like to be able to evict bad tenants (damage, rent arrears) more quickly, and have reduced risk of wilful damage.  Tenants would like to pay smaller bonds and have greater security of tenancy.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is. 

 

The cost to a landlord of an extremely dodgy bad tenant can be rent arrears unpaid, serious damage to the house and a pile of rubbish to clean up ... or a P lab.  

 

Perhaps an official register of tenants who don't pay rent or who cause deliberate damage is warranted. 

 

There are already informal networks in place to exchange this information, but they tend to be within a city and fall down when tenants move cities.

 

 





Mike

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  # 1953499 8-Feb-2018 09:48
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rjt123:

MikeB4:



If you believe there is no such thing as a poverty trap you need to remove your full face blacked out helmit and go out and look around.



I don't deny there is poverty. I never have. 


I deny your presumption that they are trapped.



I can assure you it is not an assumption. I worked over 28 years in social services. The poverty traps are real, dangerous and yes they take lives.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1953501 8-Feb-2018 09:58
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MikeB4:
rjt123:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 


If you believe there is no such thing as a poverty trap you need to remove your full face blacked out helmit and go out and look around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't deny there is poverty. I never have. 

 

 

 

I deny your presumption that they are trapped.

 



I can assure you it is not an assumption. I worked over 28 years in social services. The poverty traps are real, dangerous and yes they takes lives.

 

Well, I can't claim 28 years of experience same as you, but in the cases I have personal experience in, which is quite a few, there is a difference between feeling trapped, and actually being trapped. I don't doubt there are people in NZ who are genuinely trapped, but I'd suggest it a much much smaller number than those who feel they are trapped. In most cases in my experience, it's much harder to help those who feel they are trapped, than it is to get help for those who are actually trapped. 

 

I have recently been through a situation with a relative who had run himself into some debt by the way of some very questionable purchasing decisions. The issue was actually very simply resolved. I gave him the information, people were willing to help, but he just wanted me to bail him out, which I didn't do. Things are pretty miserable for him as he tries to do it himself, but he insists on doing in the hard way, all the time complaining about how unfair the whole thing is.  That is the difference between feeling trapped, and actually BEING trapped. 

 

 

 

I can't claim to know how to solve those problems for everyone, but I do think things like requiring everyone who has been on an unemployment benefit for a year, should be required to attend a debt/money management course. 


Lock him up!
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  # 1953502 8-Feb-2018 10:01
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I am trying to stay out of this but I think glib assertions that anyone can climb out of poverty if only they just try hard enough do not do justice to the real challenge this entails. Some people are able to rise above their circumstances. Others, limited by upbringing, intellectual capability, and other factors, cannot. It is easy to make lofty pronouncements from a privileged position of good education and mental development, but for some, the climb truly is insurmountable. They need constant, one-on-one support to make it far enough to do the rest on their own. Imagine not even being able to read in today's world. How limiting is that? The climb is a lot higher when you start from a lot lower. The Howard League has been addressing these kinds of issues in prisons for years.

 

People in this kind of position can only get the least rewarding jobs, if anything at all. Paying them a little more for the thankless work they do can at least provide a small step up on the ledge to something better. It is a lot easier to improve yourself when you are not constantly struggling just to stay alive. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1953503 8-Feb-2018 10:04
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networkn:

 

MikeB4:
rjt123:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 


If you believe there is no such thing as a poverty trap you need to remove your full face blacked out helmit and go out and look around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't deny there is poverty. I never have. 

 

 

 

I deny your presumption that they are trapped.

 



I can assure you it is not an assumption. I worked over 28 years in social services. The poverty traps are real, dangerous and yes they takes lives.

 

Well, I can't claim 28 years of experience same as you, but in the cases I have personal experience in, which is quite a few, there is a difference between feeling trapped, and actually being trapped. I don't doubt there are people in NZ who are genuinely trapped, but I'd suggest it a much much smaller number than those who feel they are trapped. In most cases in my experience, it's much harder to help those who feel they are trapped, than it is to get help for those who are actually trapped. 

 

I have recently been through a situation with a relative who had run himself into some debt by the way of some very questionable purchasing decisions. The issue was actually very simply resolved. I gave him the information, people were willing to help, but he just wanted me to bail him out, which I didn't do. Things are pretty miserable for him as he tries to do it himself, but he insists on doing in the hard way, all the time complaining about how unfair the whole thing is.  That is the difference between feeling trapped, and actually BEING trapped. 

 

 

 

I can't claim to know how to solve those problems for everyone, but I do think things like requiring everyone who has been on an unemployment benefit for a year, should be required to attend a debt/money management course. 

 

 

A lot of people do not have families who can help like in your situation. If you think places like WINZ are there to help, clearly you have never been into them. A lot of todays beneficiaries are people with disabilities as our actual unemployment rate is low. These people are now critically poor because the system has been stripped over the last 9 years. People who have never been there will never be able to understand what its like to be genuinely trapped.


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  # 1953508 8-Feb-2018 10:13
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networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101238392/grant-robertsons-uturn-on-public-debt-hints-at-deeper-concerns-about-debt

 

I am lost for words. Almost. How can anyone take these people seriously at this point!? I mean WT Actual F!?

 

After years of criticising National for a significant growth in Crown debt to more than $60 billion over the last decade, Robertson now seems to think the state of public debt is the best thing about the New Zealand economy.

 

As sharemarket turmoil in the United States spread around the world, Robertson said in an interview that he had real confidence in New Zealand's economic fundamentals.

 

"Essentially the low level of public debt is a really important part of it."

 

 

 

 

Why are you surprised at his U-Turn? lol

 

He made it quite clear the entire election campaign he didn't have a clue about the job of finance minister, and this just confirms he is a dope.


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  # 1953511 8-Feb-2018 10:15
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rjt123:

 

networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101238392/grant-robertsons-uturn-on-public-debt-hints-at-deeper-concerns-about-debt

 

I am lost for words. Almost. How can anyone take these people seriously at this point!? I mean WT Actual F!?

 

After years of criticising National for a significant growth in Crown debt to more than $60 billion over the last decade, Robertson now seems to think the state of public debt is the best thing about the New Zealand economy.

 

As sharemarket turmoil in the United States spread around the world, Robertson said in an interview that he had real confidence in New Zealand's economic fundamentals.

 

"Essentially the low level of public debt is a really important part of it."

 

 

 

 

Why are you surprised at his U-Turn? lol

 

He made it quite clear the entire election campaign he didn't have a clue about the job of finance minister, and this just confirms he is a dope.

 

 

IMO he is the most clued up of any of them, certainly the ones I have seen/met etc, but that is a worrying turn around. 

 

It is shocking to me, that people believe this level of learning on the job is acceptable in someone paid what he (and they as a group) are paid. 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1953518 8-Feb-2018 10:22
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Pumpedd:

 

A lot of todays beneficiaries are people with disabilities as our actual unemployment rate is low. 

 

 

The minimum wage won't help those people.


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  # 1953527 8-Feb-2018 10:35
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Rikkitic:

 

I am trying to stay out of this but I think glib assertions that anyone can climb out of poverty if only they just try hard enough do not do justice to the real challenge this entails. Some people are able to rise above their circumstances. Others, limited by upbringing, intellectual capability, and other factors, cannot. It is easy to make lofty pronouncements from a privileged position of good education and mental development, but for some, the climb truly is insurmountable. They need constant, one-on-one support to make it far enough to do the rest on their own. Imagine not even being able to read in today's world. How limiting is that? The climb is a lot higher when you start from a lot lower. The Howard League has been addressing these kinds of issues in prisons for years.

 

People in this kind of position can only get the least rewarding jobs, if anything at all. Paying them a little more for the thankless work they do can at least provide a small step up on the ledge to something better. It is a lot easier to improve yourself when you are not constantly struggling just to stay alive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are right, but I firmly believe that the people who can't get out are the slim minority. I don't object to the government helping in some way, but it needs to be real one-on-one help like what Bill English was talking about during the election campaign, budgeting, debt management. 

 

I don't know what Labour's alternative to National Standards is, but literacy is fundamental, i hope it is their intention to lift that.


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  # 1953531 8-Feb-2018 10:49
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MikeAqua:

 

GV27:

 

Yea, let's ignore things like massive letting fees and bonds, if the poors want better accomodation they should just rent somewhere better. Absolutely no barriers to overcome there! 

 

 

We seem to have tenancy system that neither tenants nor landlords are happy with. 

 

Landlords would like to be able to evict bad tenants (damage, rent arrears) more quickly, and have reduced risk of wilful damage.  Tenants would like to pay smaller bonds and have greater security of tenancy.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is. 

 

The cost to a landlord of an extremely dodgy bad tenant can be rent arrears unpaid, serious damage to the house and a pile of rubbish to clean up ... or a P lab.  

 

Perhaps an official register of tenants who don't pay rent or who cause deliberate damage is warranted. 

 

There are already informal networks in place to exchange this information, but they tend to be within a city and fall down when tenants move cities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The solution is more flexible tenancy law.

 

Firstly, not all landlords or all tenants have the same needs. Some of each will want short terms, some of each will want longer terms. As far as I can tell, current tenancy law does not encourage or facilitate anything other than relatively short terms with repetitive renewal in some circumstances.

 

Secondly, some tenants will be appalling and some will treat the property as if it was their own.

 

In some European countries, people will rent for their entire lives in the same property. As long as they pay the rent (increases of which are usually periodic, say every 5 years, and are controlled in some way, either by formula or by an independent adjudication process) and do not cause damage, they cannot be evicted even on sale - the new owner must take on the tenants and the tenancy in the same terms as the old owner. This makes  the sale value a factor of the investment income, rather than the capital value of the building.

 

I can't see any reason why such tenancies could not be available to those that wish to use them in New Zealand. A long term tenant for 10/15/25/50 years who pays his rent on time, respects the property and so on will be desirable to a number of landlords.

 

Likewise, some tenants want short terms (fill in between moving from owned properties, short term employment away from home, students or whatever) and some landlords will want that because they want the flexibility to sell the property or re-purpose it for family use or what have you on short notice.

 

Rents in the long term case are usually lower than the short term case and tenants would usually have more rights to do things like paint rooms, add normal fixtures and that kind of thing. In return, landlords usually have less obligations for fixtures and are responsible only for the basic building structure itself.

 

 

 

What I do not see taking place here (NZ not GZ) is any sort of wider discussion about completely renovating NZ's tenancy system. With a larger number of folk finding purchase a less attractive option (and no realistic likelihood of any great change there, despite what government wonks claim they are going to 'do') then finding a different solution for their longer term housing needs is more constructive and more achievable than any kind of mythical magic wand solution to make houses "affordable".






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  # 1953535 8-Feb-2018 10:57
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networkn:

 

rjt123:

 

networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101238392/grant-robertsons-uturn-on-public-debt-hints-at-deeper-concerns-about-debt

 

I am lost for words. Almost. How can anyone take these people seriously at this point!? I mean WT Actual F!?

 

After years of criticising National for a significant growth in Crown debt to more than $60 billion over the last decade, Robertson now seems to think the state of public debt is the best thing about the New Zealand economy.

 

As sharemarket turmoil in the United States spread around the world, Robertson said in an interview that he had real confidence in New Zealand's economic fundamentals.

 

"Essentially the low level of public debt is a really important part of it."

 

 

 

 

Why are you surprised at his U-Turn? lol

 

He made it quite clear the entire election campaign he didn't have a clue about the job of finance minister, and this just confirms he is a dope.

 

 

IMO he is the most clued up of any of them, certainly the ones I have seen/met etc, but that is a worrying turn around. 

 

It is shocking to me, that people believe this level of learning on the job is acceptable in someone paid what he (and they as a group) are paid. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The funniest thing is that they still think NZ interest rates are low. By international standards, they are still high and we have a comparatively inflexible mortgage market with short fixed terms - hardly any 10 year terms and AFAIK no 15, 20 or 30 year fixes and no rate trackers.






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  # 1953537 8-Feb-2018 10:59
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I believe that tenancy rules in NZ are massively lopsided. There are bad landlords and bad tenants. It's almost freaking impossible to get out of a bad situation as a landlord, without significant cost, but it's much easier to get out of a bad rental situation along with punitive financial repercussions for the errant landlord. 

 

Whilst I would say in some cases the tenant is more vulnerable, there are next to no repercussions of being a bad tenant in NZ.

 

 


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  # 1953546 8-Feb-2018 11:08
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networkn:

 

I believe that tenancy rules in NZ are massively lopsided. There are bad landlords and bad tenants. It's almost freaking impossible to get out of a bad situation as a landlord, without significant cost, but it's much easier to get out of a bad rental situation along with punitive financial repercussions for the errant landlord. 

 

Whilst I would say in some cases the tenant is more vulnerable, there are next to no repercussions of being a bad tenant in NZ.

 

 

 

 

Actually the repercussions are that they lose their bond which can be quite significant. Landlords also have courts and tribunals available. Landlords should also put in place a more frequent inspection regime.


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  # 1953566 8-Feb-2018 11:43
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Pumpedd:

 

Actually the repercussions are that they lose their bond which can be quite significant. Landlords also have courts and tribunals available. Landlords should also put in place a more frequent inspection regime.

 

 

Serious damage and rental arrears often go together (the damage being retaliation in response to an eviction notice).  So the tenant loses their bond, but they were in arrears for at least that much rent anyway.  There is nothing left to cover damage (can be $$$$$) and rubbish removal.  No point in taking legal action against someone with no money.

 

BTW I'm a landlord and a tenant in different properties (long story). 





Mike

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  # 1953721 8-Feb-2018 16:12
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6FIEND:

 

However, a significant portion of our poverty-stricken population would struggle to meet the (retired) National Standards for the final year of PRIMARY School.  Let alone Secondary school. 

 

 

 

 

Yes - but the free first year of tertiary education (then later years 2 and 3) isn't limited to tertiary academic study at University, but specifically targeted at trades & NZ Diploma/Certificate level study at polytechnics, through ITOs etc.
They also have considerable free support services available for people who've failed (or you could say "have been failed by") the school system.

 

I do think that there's an issue with the school system - some teachers consider themselves to be academics, thus "above" mere peasants, thus aren't very interested in promoting non-academic study and career options. Many of the 50% of students with below average performance tend to write themselves off, with that often reinforced by a system that doesn't seem to give a sh*t.  I'm aware that many scholarships on offer - specifically to lend a helping-hand to disadvantaged students - were not being taken up, probably because the schools didn't really give a damn.

 

 


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