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546 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 225620 27-Nov-2017 10:31
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I have enough self-awareness to recognize that I am predisposed to view any socialist policy with a large dose of scepticism.  Nonetheless, found myself more perplexed than ever when in their election campaign, Labour signalled that they would immediately begin raising the minimum wage at more than twice the rate of inflation and continue to do so until it exceeds $20/hr.  At the same time, they set out a "Workplace Relations" policy  that would enforce a National Awards rate of pay across industries, greatly reduce Employer's rights, and double the number of Labour Inspectors.

 

Each of these policies individually would likely have a detrimental effect on the unemployment rate (particularly youth unemployment) as businesses find the cost of hiring an inexperienced or un-skilled person have increased significantly and their options in situations where the employee isn't working out have been reduced.  Combined into a single manifesto, it seemed to me that Labour would be staring down the barrel of massive youth unemployment.  However, in their Fiscal Plan  Labour said that they would:

* Target reducing New Zealand’s unemployment to 4% by backing apprenticeships, getting young people off the dole and Ready for Work, etc.

 

There was a huge incongruence there that I couldn't get my head around for a long time.

 

But, I've figured it out now...  Chris Hipkins was holding both the silver bullet, and the weapon to fire it.

 

The weapon:  Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything.
The silver bullet:  Increases to student allowances.

 

Now, anyone over 24 on the JobSeeker benefit $210pw can enrol in tertiary study free of charge and collect a student allowance of $267pw.  That's a 27% payrise and it removes all obligation to attend WINZ meetings, or to actively be seeking employment.  (Even if under 24, they'll still receive more than the dole)

 

This is a great incentive to "get young people off the dole" and is likely to help Labour achieve it's unemployment target, while simultaneously pricing young people out of the labour market.

 

It's going to be great.  For a while...


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1529 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1908347 27-Nov-2017 11:10
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They promised a lot of things in the election as they were desperate for power at any cost. Included a massive cut to immigration, new spending to lie within existing budgets and an impossible amount of new building.


6146 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1908355 27-Nov-2017 11:26
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Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything.

 

 

That's untrue.


 
 
 
 


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546 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 465


  Reply # 1908415 27-Nov-2017 13:02
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Fred99:

 

 

Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything.

 

 

That's untrue.

 

 

I would actually be happy to learn that that is the case.  However, there's nothing to suggest that it's untrue from the Tertiary Education Commission's page (or this one), or in the Minister's Press Release on the matter, nor on the Ministry of Education site linked therein.

 

As has been mentioned in other threads, it is impossible to prove a negative by showing a lack of evidence - so could you maybe provide a source that supports your assertion?  If so, I will happily amend the original post to reflect the "truth".

 

(The overall point would remain essentially unchanged)


648 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 155


  Reply # 1908530 27-Nov-2017 15:52
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6FIEND:

 


I have enough self-awareness to recognize that I am predisposed to view any socialist policy with a large dose of scepticism.  Nonetheless, found myself more perplexed than ever when in their election campaign, Labour signalled that they would immediately begin raising the minimum wage at more than twice the rate of inflation and continue to do so until it exceeds $20/hr.  At the same time, they set out a "Workplace Relations" policy  that would enforce a National Awards rate of pay across industries, greatly reduce Employer's rights, and double the number of Labour Inspectors.

 

Each of these policies individually would likely have a detrimental effect on the unemployment rate (particularly youth unemployment) as businesses find the cost of hiring an inexperienced or un-skilled person have increased significantly and their options in situations where the employee isn't working out have been reduced.  Combined into a single manifesto, it seemed to me that Labour would be staring down the barrel of massive youth unemployment.  However, in their Fiscal Plan  Labour said that they would:

* Target reducing New Zealand’s unemployment to 4% by backing apprenticeships, getting young people off the dole and Ready for Work, etc.

 

There was a huge incongruence there that I couldn't get my head around for a long time.

 

But, I've figured it out now...  Chris Hipkins was holding both the silver bullet, and the weapon to fire it.

 

The weapon:  Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything.
The silver bullet:  Increases to student allowances.

 

Now, anyone over 24 on the JobSeeker benefit $210pw can enrol in tertiary study free of charge and collect a student allowance of $267pw.  That's a 27% payrise and it removes all obligation to attend WINZ meetings, or to actively be seeking employment.  (Even if under 24, they'll still receive more than the dole)

 

This is a great incentive to "get young people off the dole" and is likely to help Labour achieve it's unemployment target, while simultaneously pricing young people out of the labour market.

 

It's going to be great.  For a while...

 

 

And you're against free tertiary education because???

 

Isn't one of the basic beliefs of National supporters/neo liberal believers that the lazy unemployed should 'improve themselves' by getting 'educated' so they can get employed? 

 

Dont Nationals lords and masters the employers federation whine constantly about New Zealand unemployed not having the education or skills to be employed?

Now we have a new socially responsible, caring government, who are doing the right thing to help unemployed improve themselves and giving them a free education option, but the opposition National Party politicians, and their sycophantic supporters are whining and bitching it shouldn't be allowed!!

    


648 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 155


  Reply # 1908535 27-Nov-2017 15:58
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6FIEND:

 

Fred99:

 

 

Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything.

 

 

That's untrue.

 

 

I would actually be happy to learn that that is the case.  However, there's nothing to suggest that it's untrue from the Tertiary Education Commission's page (or this one), or in the Minister's Press Release on the matter, nor on the Ministry of Education site linked therein.

 

As has been mentioned in other threads, it is impossible to prove a negative by showing a lack of evidence - so could you maybe provide a source that supports your assertion?  If so, I will happily amend the original post to reflect the "truth".

 

(The overall point would remain essentially unchanged)

 



The overall point is that the current government is doing something constructive about unemployment in New Zealand, unlike the previous National government who did nothing about unemployment for nine years, because it suited their lords and masters (the employers) to have a high unemployment/low wage economy...


1529 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1908550 27-Nov-2017 16:23
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MaxLV:

 

6FIEND:

 

Fred99:

 

 

Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything.

 

 

That's untrue.

 

 

I would actually be happy to learn that that is the case.  However, there's nothing to suggest that it's untrue from the Tertiary Education Commission's page (or this one), or in the Minister's Press Release on the matter, nor on the Ministry of Education site linked therein.

 

As has been mentioned in other threads, it is impossible to prove a negative by showing a lack of evidence - so could you maybe provide a source that supports your assertion?  If so, I will happily amend the original post to reflect the "truth".

 

(The overall point would remain essentially unchanged)

 



The overall point is that the current government is doing something constructive about unemployment in New Zealand, unlike the previous National government who did nothing about unemployment for nine years, because it suited their lords and masters (the employers) to have a high unemployment/low wage economy...

 

 

We have high unemployment? I thought ours was one of the lowest in the western world?

 

I would have thought the current government would have higher priorities based on their election promises.




546 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 465


  Reply # 1908564 27-Nov-2017 17:01
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MaxLV:

 

The overall point is that the current government is doing something constructive about unemployment in New Zealand, unlike the previous National government who did nothing about unemployment for nine years, because it suited their lords and masters (the employers) to have a high unemployment/low wage economy...

 

 

In fact, the previous government saw a steady decline in unemployment over the past 5yrs or more...

 

 

Source: Statistics NZ

 

 

 

MaxLV:

 

And you're against free tertiary education because???

 

 

I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.

 

MaxLV:

 

and their sycophantic supporters are whining and bitching it shouldn't be allowed!!

 

Do try to keep it civil chap, there's spittle starting to form at the corner of your mouth.    

 

 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1908574 27-Nov-2017 17:41
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6FIEND:

 

I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.

 

 

That's a minority view.


54 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 34


  Reply # 1908578 27-Nov-2017 17:45
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Fred99:

6FIEND:


I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.



That's a minority view.



And that is such a perfect demonstration of everything wrong with our country that I’m framing it and keeping it for posterity! 👍

6146 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1908581 27-Nov-2017 17:52
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Reciprocity:
Fred99:

 

6FIEND:

 

 

 

I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a minority view.

 



And that is such a perfect demonstration of everything wrong with our country that I’m framing it and keeping it for posterity! 👍

 

I presume you're referring to the other poster,  The present government does seem to have a mandate - reduction/elimination of fees were policies of all parties in the coalition.


54 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 34


  Reply # 1908587 27-Nov-2017 18:06
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Fred99:

Reciprocity:
Fred99:


6FIEND:


 


I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.


 



 


That's a minority view.




And that is such a perfect demonstration of everything wrong with our country that I’m framing it and keeping it for posterity! 👍


I presume you're referring to the other poster,  The present government does seem to have a mandate - reduction/elimination of fees were policies of all parties in the coalition.



Oh, no, all you 😀
It’s nothing to do with any mandate, just your claim that either
1. Free education isn’t free. Or...
2. Kiwi taxpayers expect due diligence

...is a “minority view”

6146 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3102


  Reply # 1908614 27-Nov-2017 18:55
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Reciprocity:
Fred99:

 

Reciprocity:
Fred99:

 

 

 

6FIEND:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a minority view.

 

 

 



And that is such a perfect demonstration of everything wrong with our country that I’m framing it and keeping it for posterity! 👍

 

 

 

I presume you're referring to the other poster,  The present government does seem to have a mandate - reduction/elimination of fees were policies of all parties in the coalition.

 



Oh, no, all you 😀
It’s nothing to do with any mandate, just your claim that either
1. Free education isn’t free. Or...
2. Kiwi taxpayers expect due diligence

...is a “minority view”

 

I claim nothing of the sort - that's just an observation.

 

If you want to "project", then the OP seems to be claiming that the majority of voters are too dumb to understand the blindingly obvious.


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1908714 27-Nov-2017 22:03
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Fred99:

 

6FIEND:

 

I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.

 

 

That's a minority view.

 

 


What, only a minority think it isn't free?






272 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 101


  Reply # 1908792 28-Nov-2017 07:48
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Dos the Govt have any moral right to keep demanding former students repay loans when they're giving the same thing away to others for free? Who are in turn having it paid for by taxpayers still paying their loans? 


466 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1908796 28-Nov-2017 08:09
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6FIEND:

 

The weapon:  Free Tertiary Education.  No strings attached.  Zero obligation.  No requirement to actually attend lectures or learn anything

 

 

 

 

This was the same tactic used by the previous Labour government, which resulted in a boom for tertiary education providers both public and private. 

 

There are however differences in the tertiary education sector now surrounding heightened accountability, so if achievement rates for courses - and let's put aside the ability to manipulate the definition of a course - drop below targets in the investment plan, then funding can be reduced or accreditation to teach specific courses lost. To a certain degree, we've moved away from a 'bums on seats' approach to an outcomes based approach.


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