Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
409 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 156


  Reply # 1909236 28-Nov-2017 22:24
Send private message quote this post

Reciprocity:
Fred99:

 

6FIEND:

 

I'm against it because it isn't free.  It's funded by New Zealand Taxpayers who have a reasonable expectation that their Government will spend the money that is taken from them efficiently and with due diligence.

 

 

That's a minority view.

 



Here’s a quick thought experiment / hypothetical example.

My daughter has just finished High School. She isn’t academically gifted, but she’s good with her hands and has decided that she wants to undertake a Builder’s Apprenticeship.

 

 

Good for her, hope she does well.

 

 

The problem is that she, like all apprentices, needs to purchase her own tools. The cost of these to get started is $2.4k.
Would you commit to you, your partner, your brother, your sister, your mother, your father, your son and your daughter each paying $300 to my daughter so that she can start her apprenticeship?
(If any of those fictional characters are unable to contribute (E.g., because you don’t have a sister or because your daughter is only 4yrs old) then you would need to cover their share as well.)
Would you personally hit up your family, make up the difference, and give my daughter that money?

 

Yep happy to contribute. She will be earning good money soon so she'll be able to pay it all back (and more) in the form of taxes.

 

 


10111 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3100

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1909245 28-Nov-2017 22:47
Send private message quote this post

Reciprocity: Geektastic, the tools cost was intended to be analogous to University tuition fees...
(the thing that is being made “free”)

 

 

 

Ah - I assumed that the course fees would be analogous in that instance not the equipment.






 
 
 
 


32 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1909353 29-Nov-2017 09:54
Send private message quote this post

That would be technically a more accurate analogy, but I was aiming for an example where the cost would be 90% “things” (eg. Tools) and 10% course costs to compare against University (90% course costs, 10% things Eg. like textbooks)

32 posts

Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1909359 29-Nov-2017 10:08
Send private message quote this post

elpenguino:


Thanks for engaging elpenguino. (Note, this is a hypothetical exercise - I don’t actually have a daughter considering an apprenticeship)

Now, without looking to be antagonistic, there were some comments earlier in this thread that claimed that free tertiary education was supported by the majority. Can anyone guess at why only one person has put up their hand and said that they would be happy to contribute?

Is it because people are actually not so prepared to bear the cost as they say they are?
Is it because the free education should not apply to tradespeople? (Only aspiring Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Politicians, etc)
Is it because I haven’t given people enough time to respond?
Is it some other reason?

409 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 156


  Reply # 1909419 29-Nov-2017 10:59
Send private message quote this post

sorry to hear you don't actually have a daughter training to be a builder cos I've got a reno coming up :-)

 

 

 

The purchase of tools is slightly problematical as an analogy - they can be stolen for example. If you said her block courses were subsidised, I wonder if more people would be behind that.

 

I also wonder about the idea of means testing free tertiary education. I wonder if most people think lawyers should pay for their own kids to go to university but bus drivers's kids should get it free. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


405 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 77


  Reply # 1909423 29-Nov-2017 11:02
Send private message quote this post

elpenguino:

 

sen8or:

 

I am not against "free tertiary education" at all, both of my kids will benefit from it in the next few years, but I do firmly believe there needs to be a rider / condition on the "free education" with the person bound to contribute to NZ economy for x period and only written off if suitable grades (pass marks) are achieved.

 

I don't know how the mechanics of it all would work, linked to IRD somehow I guess, but if "society" is paying for tertiary education (which lets face it, is to give yourself a better chance at earning better money) then that "debt" should be repaid to society.

 

 

I tend to agree with your position. While I believe that in general we want society to have any person educated who wants to be, we have to draw the line somewhere. There will need be some kind of system to encourage excellence and discourage seat warmers (if there isnt already). This might take the form of restricted entry/progression numbers, minimum entry marks , pre-qualifications etc.

 

A  bonded period would encourage recipients to let some benefit return to NZ

 

 

 

 

The types of conditions that sen8or and elpenguino propose are very reasonable IMO.

 

Having worked in the tertiary education industry, I have first hand experience with "free" courses and the outcomes they deliver to both the student, institution and the taxpayer. They are not very good.

 

Bonding, loan write-offs (for strategically important courses) etc. are all far better methods of delivering outcomes than simply spraying free money around. Labour's current policy is very poorly thought through.


409 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 156


  Reply # 1909455 29-Nov-2017 11:44
Send private message quote this post

I love that story from a few years ago related to free courses from SIT. People signed up at the start of the year for extramural classes. Then they got their student ids.

 

When the ski season started the 'student's used their ids to save hundreds on ski passes.

 

it didnt matter a jot that they failed their courses, cos they were free.

 

 

 

This story sums up a couple of key points. We need to allow the system to accommodate serious students and block loafers.

 

Everyone deserves a shot but it should not be impossible to fail. Those with a history of failure should have a lot of trouble continuing.

 

If you believe that kind of thing, the story shows how 'the market' finds new opportunities and exploits them ruthlessly.




407 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 379


  Reply # 1909578 29-Nov-2017 14:28
Send private message quote this post

elpenguino:

 

I love that story from a few years ago related to free courses from SIT. People signed up at the start of the year for extramural classes. Then they got their student ids.

 

When the ski season started the 'student's used their ids to save hundreds on ski passes.

 

it didnt matter a jot that they failed their courses, cos they were free.

 

...snip...

 

If you believe that kind of thing, the story shows how 'the market' finds new opportunities and exploits them ruthlessly.

 

 

 

 

This relates directly to the Original Post.

 

The only differences are:
1) now, rather than being limited to Southland, the entitlement is being rolled out country-wide
2) now, instead of just exploiting student discounts, people are going to be paid more than the unemployment benefit if they sign up for the free courses.


409 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 156


  Reply # 1910575 29-Nov-2017 14:52
Send private message quote this post

if they're studying, whats wrong with that?

 

Do you want uneducated people to remain so?


1149 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 507


  Reply # 1910589 29-Nov-2017 15:12
Send private message quote this post

Does the cheaper fees that is being implemented mean max limits on student loans will be decreased?




407 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 379


  Reply # 1910597 29-Nov-2017 15:35
2 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

elpenguino:

 

if they're studying, whats wrong with that?

 

Do you want uneducated people to remain so?

 

 

What's wrong with that?  Two things.

 

1. How do you ensure that they're studying?  (and not hitting the slopes, per your anecdote, not caring if they fail their course because it cost them nothing)

 

2. Why should it be funded by Labourers, Cleaners, and other uneducated, menial workers when there is no reciprocal opportunity for them to get a free Apprenticeship?

 

 

 

I absolutely do not want uneducated people to remain so, but poorly considered schemes like this one are not likely to advance that goal.


409 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 156


  Reply # 1910603 29-Nov-2017 15:47
Send private message quote this post

1 - roll calls

 

 

 

2 - Labourers and cleaners pay because they too might want to go to university. I don't know why you mentioned cleaners etc can't get 'free' apprenticeships - AFAIK no one can get a free apprenticeship.

 

Apprenticeships are even better than free, the apprentice gets paid.


5148 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2404


  Reply # 1910611 29-Nov-2017 16:00
Send private message quote this post

elpenguino:

 

Apprenticeships are even better than free, the apprentice gets paid.

 

 

...yet there's a shortage of apprentices and tradespeople.

 

One problem that I've seen is that some possible apprentices are working as labourers and trade assistants - because they can't get by on minimum wages paid to apprentices.  This applies particularly to (potential) adult apprentices.  Forfeiting an extra $20 an hour (or more) in future, for the $10 an hour extra they need right now - to pay rent, feed a child etc.

 

Another is that tradespeople don't want to take on apprentices for an assortment of reasons - including that despite the low wages, the cost of supervision / on-job training exceeds the benefits.  Yet another reason is that with the nature of construction work and subcontracting, larger firms tend to subcontract out labour when they get larger contracts - and the labour-hire companies aren't interested in training apprentices


409 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 156


  Reply # 1910618 29-Nov-2017 16:28
Send private message quote this post

We tend to suffer from short term-ism sometimes. If businesses involved in the trades are complaining of a shortage they should take note of the new government announcements on immigration and grab themselves the best apprentices they can get asap.

 

Yes, eventually your tradie will leave, but I bet most businesses didn't train all the staff they have at the moment anyway. Why is it alright for others to do the training but not you?

 

Getting stuck on the lowest rung as a labourer is another example of short term-ism - but all too real if you have rent to pay and kids to feed.

 

 


10111 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3100

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 1910660 29-Nov-2017 17:43
Send private message quote this post

6FIEND:

 

elpenguino:

 

if they're studying, whats wrong with that?

 

Do you want uneducated people to remain so?

 

 

What's wrong with that?  Two things.

 

1. How do you ensure that they're studying?  (and not hitting the slopes, per your anecdote, not caring if they fail their course because it cost them nothing)

 

2. Why should it be funded by Labourers, Cleaners, and other uneducated, menial workers when there is no reciprocal opportunity for them to get a free Apprenticeship?

 

 

 

I absolutely do not want uneducated people to remain so, but poorly considered schemes like this one are not likely to advance that goal.

 

 


Funded? Nah mate, it's "free". Have you not been paying attention? laughing






1 | 2 | 3 | 4
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Mobile market competition issues ComCom should watch
Posted 18-Dec-2017 10:52


New Zealand government to create digital advisory group
Posted 16-Dec-2017 08:47


Australia datum changes means whole country moving 1.8 metres north-east
Posted 16-Dec-2017 08:39


UAV Traffic Management Trial launching today in New Zealand
Posted 12-Dec-2017 16:06


UFB connections pass 460,000
Posted 11-Dec-2017 11:26


The Warehouse Group to adopt IBM Cloud to support digital transformation
Posted 11-Dec-2017 11:22


Dimension Data peeks into digital business 2018
Posted 11-Dec-2017 10:55


2018 Cyber Security Predictions
Posted 7-Dec-2017 14:55


Global Govtech Accelerator to drive public sector innovation in Wellington
Posted 7-Dec-2017 11:21


Stuff Pix media strategy a new direction
Posted 7-Dec-2017 09:37


Digital transformation is dead
Posted 7-Dec-2017 09:31


Fake news and cyber security
Posted 7-Dec-2017 09:27


Dimension Data New Zealand strengthens cybersecurity practice
Posted 5-Dec-2017 20:27


Epson NZ launches new Expression Premium Photo range
Posted 5-Dec-2017 20:26


Eventbrite and Twickets launch integration partnership in Australia and New Zealand
Posted 5-Dec-2017 20:23



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.