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Meow
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  Reply # 1949673 31-Jan-2018 20:55
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Settle down Children...





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  Reply # 1949716 31-Jan-2018 21:14
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Fred99:

dejadeadnz:


You can just open up any kind of social attitude survey and note the correlation between age and socially conservative attitudes, including lower concern for minority rights. But let's just keep playing games instead!



Yes - but please don't stereotype.  As I mentioned, I'm now relatively old.  I'm well aware that many of my contemporaries have shockingly conservative views, but also well aware that all of the people my own age I call friends are as liberal/progressive as I am.  Most pleasing is that some with conservative views can change.


As a general observation on Maori issues, my wife has a statistician/analyst working for her.  His latest revelation from looking at official data is that long term earning stats for Maori with degree level qualifications is that they earn 25% less than NZ European with exactly the same qualification.  I don't think that's OK.


According to one of my brothers in law (much younger than me), income disparity is explained by what he describes as the "fact" that Maori and Pasifika people are "happy" to earn minimum wage, and usually don't aspire for more. When I suggested that might be somewhat racist, he danced around the room loudly pronouncing that I'd accused him of being a racist, and that as he had Maori friends he was the least racist person you could ever hope to meet.  This in 2018.  In NZ.  FFS.


 


 



You can't arrive at any conclusions from that statistic other than what it states. There's no way to conclude that the fact a person is Maori is the reason they earn less.





 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1949879 1-Feb-2018 09:29
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Geektastic:
Fred99:

 

dejadeadnz:

 

You can just open up any kind of social attitude survey and note the correlation between age and socially conservative attitudes, including lower concern for minority rights. But let's just keep playing games instead!

 

 

long term earning stats for Maori with degree level qualifications is that they earn 25% less than NZ European with exactly the same qualification.  I don't think that's OK.

 



You can't arrive at any conclusions from that statistic other than what it states. There's no way to conclude that the fact a person is Maori is the reason they earn less.

 

There's a very strong correlation - if you don't think that's the result of (racist - conscious and or unconscious) attitudes in the workplace, please suggest an alternative hypothesis.

 

Perhaps also suggest a reason why Maori and Pacifica high school students with the same academic performance as their pakeha peers, are much more likely to be guided into non-academic course pathways. 

 

Racism is deeply entrenched in NZ society, even though it's not always overt. 


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  Reply # 1949883 1-Feb-2018 09:46
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I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1950004 1-Feb-2018 11:54
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Fred99:

Geektastic:
Fred99:


dejadeadnz:


You can just open up any kind of social attitude survey and note the correlation between age and socially conservative attitudes, including lower concern for minority rights. But let's just keep playing games instead!



long term earning stats for Maori with degree level qualifications is that they earn 25% less than NZ European with exactly the same qualification.  I don't think that's OK.




You can't arrive at any conclusions from that statistic other than what it states. There's no way to conclude that the fact a person is Maori is the reason they earn less.


There's a very strong correlation - if you don't think that's the result of (racist - conscious and or unconscious) attitudes in the workplace, please suggest an alternative hypothesis.


Perhaps also suggest a reason why Maori and Pacifica high school students with the same academic performance as their pakeha peers, are much more likely to be guided into non-academic course pathways. 


Racism is deeply entrenched in NZ society, even though it's not always overt. 



I can't. There isn't enough information. You need a mass of other stuff like life choices, location, family circumstances and so on.

There are a number of things that might contribute to the original data point which we do not know.





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  Reply # 1950123 1-Feb-2018 14:07
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Geektastic: You need a mass of other stuff like life choices, location, family circumstances and so on.

 

Unless you're blind and extremely unobservant, you'd possibly notice that life choices, location, family circumstances so closely collate with economic status and race, that the only thing you're truly left with is the racist argument I mentioned above in my thread, that "Maori/Pasifica people are happy to earn low wages and don't aspire for better".

 

This has been the pathetic excuse used in the past, by racists.  Sad to see that the "Happy Go Lucky" Maori myth persists in the UK, and you're bringing it back to NZ long after it's been completely and utterly discredited in NZ.


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  Reply # 1950298 1-Feb-2018 20:19
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Don Brash on Māori in negative social stats:

Don Brash 5:15: “The government have the responsibility with dealing with the social statistics of that, and Māori are heavily represented in that, in part because too many Māori don’t speak English properly.”

Yeah nah don't think so. Shaky grammar there Mr Brash. Rather negates your point old chap.



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  Reply # 1952302 6-Feb-2018 10:16
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What if in the 1830's the British Government had decided to make it illegal for any settlers to go to NZ, and instead concentrated on Australia?   Australia was a vast country & needed population.    And at the same time used their navy to discourage any attempts by France to colonise NZ.

 

The British might have encouraged trade with the Maori in NZ.   And what would have that trade led to?   Maybe the wealthier tribes would have bought more and more muskets, then rifles, and towards the end of the century even machine guns such as the Maxim (light and easily transported).     This could have led to a very violent period where the weaker tribes were either wiped out or subjugated.    So, while the colonisation of NZ was disastrous for Maori, the alternative may have equally terrible if not worse.


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  Reply # 1952324 6-Feb-2018 11:09
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And what if the tribes had united against a common threat because they didn't trust the British and Aotearoa today was a place of peace, prosperity and great natural beauty unspoilt by sheep and cows and human depredation?

 

 




I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1952339 6-Feb-2018 11:47
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Rikkitic:

 

And what if the tribes had united against a common threat because they didn't trust the British and Aotearoa today was a place of peace, prosperity and great natural beauty unspoilt by sheep and cows and human depredation?

 

 

 

Whether or not the Maori decided to "trust" the British was irrelevant. Aotearoa was never going to remain a place of peace prosperity and great natural beauty unspoilt by sheep, cows and human depredation. If the British didn't colonise New Zealand there was the French, Dutch, Spaniards, Portuguese, Germans etc.

 

The Maori were very smart and in a away did unite against a common threat. The Maori had seen and heard what had happened in other parts of the world and knew it was only a matter of time before they too were colonised. They decided the British were the best of a bad bunch and therefore asked for Queen Victoria's protection, thus leading to the Treaty of Waitangi.





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  Reply # 1952380 6-Feb-2018 12:37
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Rikkitic:

 

And what if the tribes had united against a common threat because they didn't trust the British and Aotearoa today was a place of peace, prosperity and great natural beauty unspoilt by sheep and cows and human depredation?

 

 

 

O.K. but it may have taken a few hundred years to get there just like Britain from say 1000 AD to 1700 AD!    The reality may have been more like Syria from 2011 to this day.


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  Reply # 1952687 6-Feb-2018 23:00
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amiga500:

What if in the 1830's the British Government had decided to make it illegal for any settlers to go to NZ, and instead concentrated on Australia?   Australia was a vast country & needed population.    And at the same time used their navy to discourage any attempts by France to colonise NZ.


The British might have encouraged trade with the Maori in NZ.   And what would have that trade led to?   Maybe the wealthier tribes would have bought more and more muskets, then rifles, and towards the end of the century even machine guns such as the Maxim (light and easily transported).     This could have led to a very violent period where the weaker tribes were either wiped out or subjugated.    So, while the colonisation of NZ was disastrous for Maori, the alternative may have equally terrible if not worse.


Taking 1835 as your starting point, the flag of the united tribes was flying. Maori owned the vast majority of vessels registered for coastal shipping. The Waikato was an economic power house. It is easily possible in your scenario that the treaty of waitangi would have still occured as more or less requested by Maori on the same basis. It is easily possible Te Wherowhero would have still been elected king a few years later albeit for slightly different reasons. Imo the economic power of the Waikato would have made that arrangement very stable.

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  Reply # 1952896 7-Feb-2018 12:41
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gzt: Don Brash on Māori in negative social stats:

Don Brash 5:15: “The government have the responsibility with dealing with the social statistics of that, and Māori are heavily represented in that, in part because too many Māori don’t speak English properly.”

Yeah nah don't think so. Shaky grammar there Mr Brash. Rather negates your point old chap.

 

My grandfather had a very strong Glaswegian accent.  He moved to NZ in the late 1940's.  I met him in the 1970s and his accent was still very strong.  It caused him frequent and lifelong difficulties with communication. My grandmother arranged everything that required a phone-call and most other things in person.  She had a career. Granddad drove a bus for 30 odd years and then he retired.

 

I don't agree with Brash's point as any sort of absolute explanation ... but if your English pronunciation is 'non-standard' (strong accent) and/or your language register is low it can preclude you from many opportunities.  That is no doubt a contributor to many kinds of hardship.

 

There may be some direct racial prejudice or simple snobbery at work.  In some cases there can be genuine communication difficulties.  Either way a strong accent is a barrier that makes it be harder to access any of retail, education, housing, social security, employment, credit, legal representation.  NZ is increasingly international - especially call centres and front line jobs. This can amplify communication difficulties.

 

Personally I have never met anyone from NZ that I could not understand clearly (other than people with genuine speech impediments).  But ... I was born in Rotorua, attended a decile 2 primary school and growing up had relatives and friends for whom English was a second language.





Mike



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  Reply # 1954895 10-Feb-2018 18:45
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/101263540/lets-get-over-our-waitangi-day-shame

 

Love to be 'a fly on the wall' and watch (or hear) Sir Bob Jones' reaction to Guyon Espiner's Te Reo greeting each morning of Morning Report...

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1955682 12-Feb-2018 12:58
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Bob Jones comments are simply illogical.  We are all (regardless of ethnicity) the product of history. 

 

If history had gone significantly differently, many people now living would never have been born - different people would have been born instead.  Should we all be 'grateful' for the terrible events of the 1940s for example?





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