Don Brash with Kim Hill. RNZ needs a new feature in their app

Forums › Politics › Don Brash with Kim Hill. RNZ needs a new feature in their app - an optional Te Reo filter

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# 1955960 12-Feb-2018 19:13

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Fred99:

There's a very strong correlation - if you don't think that's the result of (racist - conscious and or unconscious) attitudes in the workplace, please suggest an alternative hypothesis.

Correlation doesn't always mean causality. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. That's policy 101.

There are a number of reasons that could be in play apart from racism.

Qualifications are strongly predictive of earnings, and certain groups achieve qualifications at much lower rates than others.

Earnings are inversely associated with fertility, as time out of the workforce damages careers and earnings potential, as does working part time, and certain groups have higher fertility rates than others.

Average earnings are higher in some areas than others, eg major metropolitan centers tend to be higher than rural areas, and certain groups are disproportional rural.

Earnings tend to rise with age, and some populations are (on average) younger than others.

There are many potential factors at play. Jumping straight to hand-waving "racism" claims without proper analysis is sloppy, and makes for poor solutions.

Rikkitic

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# 1955970 12-Feb-2018 19:48

I strongly suspect that racism has to do with why certain groups achieve qualifications at much lower rates, and why certain groups have higher reproductive rates, and why they tend to concentrate in rural areas, and why they may be younger on average.

Discrimination can be subtle, as well as overt. It can seep into advertising, and education, and public services. There are many ways in which certain children can be told they are somehow less valuable than others. Those who grow up hearing this kind of thing are affected by it. Their confidence is affected. The decisions they make are affected. The jobs they try for, the futures they dream about, the opportunities they believe are available to them, are all affected.

The correlation isn't always obvious. That doesn't mean it does not exist.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Geektastic

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# 1956065 12-Feb-2018 23:39

Rikkitic:

And what if the tribes had united against a common threat because they didn't trust the British and Aotearoa today was a place of peace, prosperity and great natural beauty unspoilt by sheep and cows and human depredation?

You know perfectly well that in the context of the time, all that would have happened eventually is that someone would have come and decided it looked like something they wanted and, if necessary, started shooting and not stopped until there was nil resistance or nobody left, whichever came first.

Could have been the French, the Germans, the Belgians even if the British did not take it.

Your suggested outcome would have been extremely unlikely: stone age society meets 19th Century head on? Only going to be one winner there, realistically.

Geektastic

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# 1956067 12-Feb-2018 23:43

JimmyH:

Fred99:

There's a very strong correlation - if you don't think that's the result of (racist - conscious and or unconscious) attitudes in the workplace, please suggest an alternative hypothesis.

Correlation doesn't always mean causality. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. That's policy 101.

There are a number of reasons that could be in play apart from racism.

Qualifications are strongly predictive of earnings, and certain groups achieve qualifications at much lower rates than others.

Earnings are inversely associated with fertility, as time out of the workforce damages careers and earnings potential, as does working part time, and certain groups have higher fertility rates than others.

Average earnings are higher in some areas than others, eg major metropolitan centers tend to be higher than rural areas, and certain groups are disproportional rural.

Earnings tend to rise with age, and some populations are (on average) younger than others.

There are many potential factors at play. Jumping straight to hand-waving "racism" claims without proper analysis is sloppy, and makes for poor solutions.

Also you cannot discount the effect of other family and friends on people's outcomes. If all your friends and your family deride your attempts to get on in life, you need serious chops to ignore that. Likewise, if they massively encourage and indeed expect you to succeed and better yourself, as is more common amongst Asian families and Chinese families and so on, then you probably will.

I'm not really sure how the government can measure that nor, indeed, what could be done to change it.

gzt

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# 1956096 13-Feb-2018 06:08

Brash's idea that maori were members of a stone age society before europeans turned up is just total gibbering nonsense.

Reciprocity

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# 1956273 13-Feb-2018 11:45

gzt: Brash's idea that maori were members of a stone age society before europeans turned up is just total gibbering nonsense.

Any notion to the contrary is merely fanciful romanticism.
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2015/02/bruce-moon-before-1840.html?m=1

Rikkitic

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# 1956314 13-Feb-2018 13:01

Any notion to the contrary is merely fanciful romanticism.
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2015/02/bruce-moon-before-1840.html?m=1

Yuck. Racism really is alive and well in New Zealand.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

MikeAqua

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# 1956323 13-Feb-2018 13:29

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gzt: Brash's idea that maori were members of a stone age society before europeans turned up is just total gibbering nonsense.

It's true to say Maori had technology reminiscent of the stone age stone age technology - i.e. no metal was in use.

I don't think anyone could claim Maori culture was better or worse than European culture at the time. Maori culture had some conventions that were perhaps improvements upon contemporary European culture and some that were definitely not.

In the 1800s both Maori and Europeans were happy to attack, subjugate and kill each other. Iwi were happy to do the same to other iwi and European countries quite happy waging war against each other.

Mike

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# 1956326 13-Feb-2018 13:31

Rikkitic:

Any notion to the contrary is merely fanciful romanticism.
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.co.nz/2015/02/bruce-moon-before-1840.html?m=1

Yuck. Racism really is alive and well in New Zealand.

So pointing to historic references that document New Zealand’s history constitutes racism now?

Rikkitic

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# 1956356 13-Feb-2018 14:29

Reciprocity:

So pointing to historic references that document New Zealand’s history constitutes racism now?

Nope. I was referring to the comments.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Reciprocity

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# 1956375 13-Feb-2018 14:47

My mistake.
In that case, we are in agreement.

JimmyH

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# 1956654 13-Feb-2018 21:56

gzt: Brash's idea that maori were members of a stone age society before europeans turned up is just total gibbering nonsense.

To the best of my knowledge, they weren't smelting metals before the Europeans arrived. The tools were essentially stone and bone only, which is pretty much the definition of stone age.

Unless you are aware of facts to the contrary?

Geektastic

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# 1956667 13-Feb-2018 22:35

JimmyH:
gzt: Brash's idea that maori were members of a stone age society before europeans turned up is just total gibbering nonsense.

To the best of my knowledge, they weren't smelting metals before the Europeans arrived. The tools were essentially stone and bone only, which is pretty much the definition of stone age.

Unless you are aware of facts to the contrary?

Writing? The wheel? Complex mathematics? Science? Metalwork? All things many much older societies developed thousands of years ago. I've not seen much demonstration that those, or similar, things were extant when explorers from Europe arrived here.
It seems reasonable to describe what was here as a stone age society.
Not saying it's good or bad, but it sounds reasonable as a comparison.

gzt

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# 1956687 14-Feb-2018 00:08

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JimmyH:
gzt: Brash's idea that maori were members of a stone age society before europeans turned up is just total gibbering nonsense.

To the best of my knowledge, they weren't smelting metals before the Europeans arrived. The tools were essentially stone and bone only, which is pretty much the definition of stone age.

Unless you are aware of facts to the contrary?

I am yes. It is a ridiculous misuse of the term. Quoting Wikipedia for convenience:

Wikipedia: The terms "Stone Age", "Bronze Age", and "Iron Age" were never meant to suggest that advancement and time periods in prehistory are only measured by the type of tool material, rather than, for example, social organization, food sources exploited, adaptation to climate, adoption of agriculture, cooking, settlement and religion. Like pottery, the typology of the stone tools combined with the relative sequence of the types in various regions provide a chronological framework for the evolution of man and society. They serve as diagnostics of date, rather than characterizing the people or the society.

Brash and others of his ilk misuse the term in an attempt to characterise pre-european contact maori society and technology for purposes known only to themselves.

Rikkitic

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# 1956731 14-Feb-2018 08:53

gzt:

I am yes. It is a ridiculous misuse of the term. Quoting Wikipedia for convenience:

Wikipedia: The terms "Stone Age", "Bronze Age", and "Iron Age" were never meant to suggest that advancement and time periods in prehistory are only measured by the type of tool material, rather than, for example, social organization, food sources exploited, adaptation to climate, adoption of agriculture, cooking, settlement and religion. Like pottery, the typology of the stone tools combined with the relative sequence of the types in various regions provide a chronological framework for the evolution of man and society. They serve as diagnostics of date, rather than characterizing the people or the society.

Brash and others of his ilk misuse the term in an attempt to characterise pre-european contact maori society and technology for purposes known only to themselves.

Agree with this. The term 'Stone Age' is not being used in a neutral descriptive sense, but as a sneer. As in, they were so primitive and backward until the wonderful Europeans came along with their advanced civilisation. That is indeed gibbering nonsense.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

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