So it begins...

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656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1956498 13-Feb-2018 18:38

rjt123: No love lost between the two. BE could obviously see thru him from a long time ago.

(Re: the posts from earlier about career politicians - case in point, Winnie's been in parliament for most of his life and he's still no use.)

he's been very useful throughout his career. See the current government for proof of that, and that's the main reason why he's got the party votes from those of us that like his lifetime of experience and usefulness as a politician.

IMHO the national party are going to have a hell of a job to pick a new leader that doesn't come with 'baggage' and election losing consequences come 2020. All the current 'candidates' will have problems with winning enough party support in 2020, without another party or parties to assist them.

They've effectively killed off every party that has supported them in this MMP era, and still dont really understand how to use the MMP system to get back on to the government benches.

See all the claims they made about their so called 'moral right' to be the government in September and October for proof of that. The National party supporters I know and have contact with still believe and like to claim they should be the government because they were the 'largest' party by the vote count. They're a lot like the HRC/democrat supporters in the USA in that regard by believing they have been cheated.

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networkn

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#1956499 13-Feb-2018 18:43

MaxLV:

he's been very useful throughout his career. See the current government for proof of that, and that's the main reason why he's got the party votes from those of us that like his lifetime of experience and usefulness as a politician.

Are you talking about Winston? (Seriously!?) Useful? Do you think he is a good fit for PM, even temporarily?

MaxLV

656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1956508 13-Feb-2018 19:05

networkn:

MaxLV:

he's been very useful throughout his career. See the current government for proof of that, and that's the main reason why he's got the party votes from those of us that like his lifetime of experience and usefulness as a politician.

Are you talking about Winston? (Seriously!?) Useful? Do you think he is a good fit for PM, even temporarily?

Yes, and yes.

Just seeing and hearing the doom and disaster the sky is falling pronouncements of national party supporters shows that's going to be a good thing, even if it is only for six weeks. But we also have him as deputy prime minister for three years. Life is good in New Zealand...

elpenguino

2908 posts

Uber Geek

#1956584 13-Feb-2018 20:22

Play the ball, not the man.
My advice for football, politics and internet for us, fwiw.

Crusher can't be used as an effective attack dog , she is easily dismissed as tainted after mixing personal enrichment with politics.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

rjt123

517 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1956592 13-Feb-2018 20:48

MaxLV:
rjt123: No love lost between the two. BE could obviously see thru him from a long time ago.

(Re: the posts from earlier about career politicians - case in point, Winnie's been in parliament for most of his life and he's still no use.)

he's been very useful throughout his career. See the current government for proof of that, and that's the main reason why he's got the party votes from those of us that like his lifetime of experience and usefulness as a politician.

IMHO the national party are going to have a hell of a job to pick a new leader that doesn't come with 'baggage' and election losing consequences come 2020. All the current 'candidates' will have problems with winning enough party support in 2020, without another party or parties to assist them.

They've effectively killed off every party that has supported them in this MMP era, and still dont really understand how to use the MMP system to get back on to the government benches.

See all the claims they made about their so called 'moral right' to be the government in September and October for proof of that. The National party supporters I know and have contact with still believe and like to claim they should be the government because they were the 'largest' party by the vote count. They're a lot like the HRC/democrat supporters in the USA in that regard by believing they have been cheated.

When I said useful I meant useful to NZ, not useful to a particular political party to achieve some dubious political end. I can't see that he has helped NZ as a country really in any tangible way (the racing minority aside).

Collecting political baggage is a risk. On the other hand jacinda didn't really have any because she had done nothing. Quote from Nikki Kaye in March 17: "I've been in Auckland Central for eight years, and I struggle to name anything Jacinda has done"

rjt123

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Ultimate Geek
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#1956601 13-Feb-2018 21:02

The key will be to cater to the populist movement. Globally, society is shunning the sensible, logical choice (think Bill English) and choosing the alternative popular option. Trump in USA, Macron in France, Corbyn gained a huge jump in UK, far right parties are gaining momentum in Europe...

The days of traditional well thought out policies, carefully managed campaigns etc are over, we're in the "anything goes as long as it's not traditional" era (think Trump's tweets, pregnant PMs etc). And that's why Jacinda defied the old logic. No substance, just some nice smiles, and say what people want to hear. But that's what you need for votes these day.

I'm not lamenting this shift, just stating a fact.

MaxLV

656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1956649 13-Feb-2018 21:45

rjt123:

When I said useful I meant useful to NZ, not useful to a particular political party to achieve some dubious political end. I can't see that he has helped NZ as a country really in any tangible way (the racing minority aside).

Collecting political baggage is a risk. On the other hand jacinda didn't really have any because she had done nothing. Quote from Nikki Kaye in March 17: "I've been in Auckland Central for eight years, and I struggle to name anything Jacinda has done"

He has been very useful to NZ. He's been active dragging the two principal political parties in NZ into MMP, even though the National party is still under the impression we have a first past the post election system.

That alone is enough.

As for Jacinda, she has done a lot in her first 100+ days for NZ since she became Prime Minister of NZ, with Winstons crucial help.

rjt123

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#1956653 13-Feb-2018 21:55

MaxLV:
rjt123:

When I said useful I meant useful to NZ, not useful to a particular political party to achieve some dubious political end. I can't see that he has helped NZ as a country really in any tangible way (the racing minority aside).

Collecting political baggage is a risk. On the other hand jacinda didn't really have any because she had done nothing. Quote from Nikki Kaye in March 17: "I've been in Auckland Central for eight years, and I struggle to name anything Jacinda has done"

He has been very useful to NZ. He's been active dragging the two principal political parties in NZ into MMP, even though the National party is still under the impression we have a first past the post election system.

That alone is enough.

As for Jacinda, she has done a lot in her first 100+ days for NZ since she became Prime Minister of NZ, with Winstons crucial help.

If that's the only useful thing he has done then he's outstayed his welcome by 20 years... Lol

Edit: Jacinda's achievements can be argued either way. Referring to a post on page 2. But this isn't really the thread for discussing that

networkn

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#1956655 13-Feb-2018 21:57

MaxLV:

networkn:

MaxLV:

he's been very useful throughout his career. See the current government for proof of that, and that's the main reason why he's got the party votes from those of us that like his lifetime of experience and usefulness as a politician.

Are you talking about Winston? (Seriously!?) Useful? Do you think he is a good fit for PM, even temporarily?

Yes, and yes.

Just seeing and hearing the doom and disaster the sky is falling pronouncements of national party supporters shows that's going to be a good thing, even if it is only for six weeks. But we also have him as deputy prime minister for three years. Life is good in New Zealand...

I suspected it before, now I know it for sure. You are trolling.

I know 3 people who voted NZF, all of them wanted a coalition with National and not one of them thinks he should be deputy PM much less PM. They actually apologised. Funny.

BTW you should read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

MaxLV

656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1956700 14-Feb-2018 02:12

networkn:

MaxLV:

Yes, and yes.

Just seeing and hearing the doom and disaster the sky is falling pronouncements of national party supporters shows that's going to be a good thing, even if it is only for six weeks. But we also have him as deputy prime minister for three years. Life is good in New Zealand...

I suspected it before, now I know it for sure. You are trolling.

I know 3 people who voted NZF, all of them wanted a coalition with National and not one of them thinks he should be deputy PM much less PM. They actually apologised. Funny.

BTW you should read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

No I'm not trolling, any more than you are.

Everyone I know who party voted for NZF, did so in the hope that Winston would get to choose the party we wanted on the government benches, and he did choose the right party.

National lost the election and any support they might have got from Winston because of their 'anti Winston election campaign and only have themselves to blame for that, and is one of the main reasons why I party voted NZF.

As to him being the deputy prime minister that's part of the coalition agreement, and something I'n glad he was given as part of that agreement.

MaxLV

656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1956701 14-Feb-2018 02:19

rjt123:
MaxLV:

rjt123:

When I said useful I meant useful to NZ, not useful to a particular political party to achieve some dubious political end. I can't see that he has helped NZ as a country really in any tangible way (the racing minority aside).

Collecting political baggage is a risk. On the other hand jacinda didn't really have any because she had done nothing. Quote from Nikki Kaye in March 17: "I've been in Auckland Central for eight years, and I struggle to name anything Jacinda has done"

He has been very useful to NZ. He's been active dragging the two principal political parties in NZ into MMP, even though the National party is still under the impression we have a first past the post election system.

That alone is enough.

As for Jacinda, she has done a lot in her first 100+ days for NZ since she became Prime Minister of NZ, with Winstons crucial help.

If that's the only useful thing he has done then he's outstayed his welcome by 20 years... Lol

Edit: Jacinda's achievements can be argued either way. Referring to a post on page 2. But this isn't really the thread for discussing that

I'd say it's a pretty good achievement for a long term minor party political leader, but it's not the only useful thing he's done. I get free public transport anytime I want it because of Winston.

It's laughable that after 20 years of MMP, the National party still run their election campaigns on a first past the post basis... Will they ever learn?

tdgeek

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#1956708 14-Feb-2018 07:15

6FIEND:

rjt123:
networkn:

I feel that while Judith Collins was cleared of wrongdoing, many peoples perception of her is that she isn't entirely ethical or isn't trustworthy. I'd expect that to play against her during debates. Paula Bennett, I don't have a specific issue with her, but I was surprised when she was named Deputy. For that reason, I am not sure how she would go as leader.

I feel that BE should have delayed standing down, and had a meeting and suggested perhaps that a few candidates started preparing themselves for a leadership role, up-skilling themselves and then presented themselves in 6 months time, picked a replacement and stepped down.

Bridges is probably my pick. Coleman, the perception he is responsible for the healthcare black marks, but I am not certain that is fair. I'd need more information around that.

I'd go with that too, Judith's baggage would give the media too many opportunities to dig at her. Otherwise she could actually be pretty good.

Alternatively, Nikki Kaye could be good. And she has the reputation of knocking JA out of her electorate...

Minor point - JA never had an electorate to be knocked out of.

In my opinion, it would be a mistake for National to appoint a new leader simply because they are "young" or "female" or any other for any other "identity politics" reasons. Sure, the nation has become accustomed to seeing Bridges and Ardern go head-to-head on TV as relatively junior members of caucus, but that doesn't necessarily make it a smart decision to put a comparatively inexperienced MP forward to "match" Ardern.

What National need to find is a leader who is not going to shy away from holding the young, pregnant PM to account when it's warranted. Someone who isn't going to be dismissed as a "sexist old white man" whenever they probe for weakness in the Coalition's actions. But at the same time, someone who can convincingly paint a picture of a meaningfully different and viable alternative.

It's not going to be an easy choice.

I agree. While I agree its not smart to "match" Labour's strategy with someone also young, its not a bad move as its about public perception, and a younger, vibrant PM is a sound public choice.

What I bolded is Bridges in my opinion.

rjt123

517 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1956709 14-Feb-2018 07:15

MaxLV:
I'd say it's a pretty good achievement for a long term minor party political leader, but it's not the only useful thing he's done. I get free public transport anytime I want it because of Winston.

It's laughable that after 20 years of MMP, the National party still run their election campaigns on a first past the post basis... Will they ever learn?

On the contrary, National run their campaigns in complete and full belief in the soundness of their policies and rely on the virtues of policy to get votes rather than empty promises. They don't run a wishy-washy campaign like labour's, where everything is vague, or bold policies are changed the next day in case Winston gets offended. For sure it might get them into power, but it doesn't necessarily benefit NZ. But we have a government now and nothing can be done about it - what I care about now is progress for NZ, irrespective of what political party enacts it.

It will be interesting to see how many of NZ first's election promises actually get actioned compared to labour's. You might be surprised to find that a vote for Winston is a vote for labour.

MaxLV

656 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1956778 14-Feb-2018 09:38

rjt123:

MaxLV:

I'd say it's a pretty good achievement for a long term minor party political leader, but it's not the only useful thing he's done. I get free public transport anytime I want it because of Winston.

It's laughable that after 20 years of MMP, the National party still run their election campaigns on a first past the post basis... Will they ever learn?

On the contrary, National run their campaigns in complete and full belief in the soundness of their policies and rely on the virtues of policy to get votes rather than empty promises. They don't run a wishy-washy campaign like labour's, where everything is vague, or bold policies are changed the next day in case Winston gets offended. For sure it might get them into power, but it doesn't necessarily benefit NZ. But we have a government now and nothing can be done about it - what I care about now is progress for NZ, irrespective of what political party enacts it.

It will be interesting to see how many of NZ first's election promises actually get actioned compared to labour's. You might be surprised to find that a vote for Winston is a vote for labour.

National's 9 years of neo-liberal policies were another reason why they lost the government benches. The solid doing something for everyone policies of the current coalition government are another reason for the National party loss. Those of us that voted for the current coalition government wanted their polices rather than more of the same selfish neo-liberalism the National party represented.

A lot of NZF policies have been included in the coalition agreement and/or become Labour party policies as well, as have many Green party policies. That is how an MMP coalition government works. Meanwhile National Party politicians and it's supporters (such as yourself) moan about policies that aren't the neo-liberal, selfish policies of the previous government.

You're not caring much about New Zealand by being a National party supporter IMHO.

There's nothing wrong with voting for labour, it's a lot better than voting for the National party, that's for sure.

To bring the discussion back 'on topic', I hear that Judith Collins has put her 'hat in the ring' to become the leader of the opposition. Bring it on I say. She is probably the worst person they could select as their new leader, and will guarantee the National party will lose in 2020. It'll be interesting to see what the next political polls say about them and her.

networkn

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#1956804 14-Feb-2018 09:46

MaxLV:

You're not caring much about New Zealand by being a National party supporter IMHO.

I've never seen you express a Humble opinion yet.

Secondly, a considerable chunk of NZ disagrees with your view. National wasn't *quite* there on numbers to lead alone, but painfully close.

I believe, and I think you would to, if you were honest with yourself, that Winston overrode his caucus on the party he picked (hence the waka bill which is a disgrace), because he just didn't "like" a few of the people he would have had to work with in National. He didn't do what was best for NZ, he did what was best for HIM. He would have been swayed by being offered a chance for PM too, it's really all he wanted I believe.

I believe with anyone else at the Helm of NZF, we would be seeing a different situation.

NZF first support has dropped massively. You may find that like minor MMP parties in the past, the smaller parties basically die off.

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