Climate change policy discussion.

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#1964841 26-Feb-2018 23:04

tdgeek:

Like solar, EV's are not supported at all. Charging stations are, so some people have got their heads screwed on, the rest is user sort out your car. Ive never seen an ad for an EV, everyone should know about them, how much they will save on fuel, and maintenance. There should be a Govt push on new EV and pre owned. Some assistance in the form of interest free loans for part of the cost, so the user can save money, pay it back and still be saving.

This new Govt needs to step up.

There is already advertising of EVs. In the Westfield Albany mall, Initially there was a Tesla Model S on display. It generated so much interest that Tesla put a Model X on display as well. Both times, there was a Tesla salesperson next to the cars, and he let people sit in the cars, play with the navigation etc. Excellent long term exposure for Tesla in Auckland.

I got an add on Facebook for the Hyundai Ioniq. (Might have also seen one for the BMW i3).

A secondhand car dealer contacted me (direct marketing - was already on their database). Trying to sell me a Nissan E-NV electric van.

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tdgeek

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#1964849 27-Feb-2018 00:53

I'm not in Auckland, but even ChCh has access to TV now :-)

There is no rush for it, its quite silent. . A car in a mall isnt really an advertising campaign, and I'd imagine your exposure was helped because you are in the system, so to speak. If I removed my knowledge of EV that I've garnered at GZ, its next to zero. I saw a TV clip of a dealer yakking about them. I read that Govt is going to get 40 or 60 in one of their fleets. Couple of items maybe at most as well. At most.

To the mainstream, its niche, maybe a fad, and one day in the future there might be many. The sad thing is they are here and real, a few thousand and growing, but most would have no idea, just the few in the know. A few compared to the 2 million drivers we have.

GV27

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#1964861 27-Feb-2018 07:10

tdgeek:

Like solar, EV's are not supported at all. Charging stations are, so some people have got their heads screwed on, the rest is user sort out your car. Ive never seen an ad for an EV, everyone should know about them, how much they will save on fuel, and maintenance. There should be a Govt push on new EV and pre owned. Some assistance in the form of interest free loans for part of the cost, so the user can save money, pay it back and still be saving.

Why new EVs? If you can afford a $60K car brand new then you do not need a Govt subsidy for anything.

tdgeek

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#1964871 27-Feb-2018 08:12

GV27:

tdgeek:

Like solar, EV's are not supported at all. Charging stations are, so some people have got their heads screwed on, the rest is user sort out your car. Ive never seen an ad for an EV, everyone should know about them, how much they will save on fuel, and maintenance. There should be a Govt push on new EV and pre owned. Some assistance in the form of interest free loans for part of the cost, so the user can save money, pay it back and still be saving.

Why new EVs? If you can afford a $60K car brand new then you do not need a Govt subsidy for anything.

Two reasons.

If you can afford a new EV size car that's probably 40k. If I bought a 60k ICE it will be steps up from a 40k ICE, but the 60k EV is the same size and features of a 40k ICE. You cant seem to buy a new 40k EV unless I assume the range is too short and the car is too small.

Its not a subsidy, its an interest free loan, so the end cost to the Govt is small. Like any new type of product, take up is slow as its more expensive and its new. If takeup can be brought forward, the cars come to be common and normal. The subsidy starts today, and after one year, every 6 months it starts to reduce, so humans being humans, they will get in now, anything to help with money.

Same with solar. I can save money, but its too expensive or I dont want to commit, so loan me the cash, I will pay back a good portion of my savings so I am winning, and I have the future of keeping all those savings

gzt

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#1964891 27-Feb-2018 09:17

A related problem which will occur with climate change is increasing demand for and use of home air conditioning. Housing design is critical for new housing to minimise that demand.

Ideally any increase in demand would be matched by solar installation.

I prefer to see it as a design problem, but there is no doubt aircon demand will increase.

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#1964904 27-Feb-2018 09:42

gzt: A related problem which will occur with climate change is increasing demand for and use of home air conditioning. Housing design is critical for new housing to minimise that demand.

Ideally any increase in demand would be matched by solar installation.

I prefer to see it as a design problem, but there is no doubt aircon demand will increase.

Fully agree. It will get warmer, and wilder. Maybe some winters will be cooler as the weather is more unstable. Insulation is now mandatory, so one day, x kWh amount of solar panels must become mandatory on the north facing roof. Decades away, we will spend much time and cost on protecting ourselves from the heat, and the cold and the wild weather. The ex cyclone Gita that got here was due to the warmer oceans making it palatable to continue south and retain a lot of its strength. Some parts of the coastal area water temp were 6C above the Feb average, many 3C to 4C above

happyfunball

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Ultimate Geek

#1965037 27-Feb-2018 12:37

Fred99:

Of that "transportation" segment, only part of it will be from private motor vehicles.

While I agree that driving an EV may be a small part of a global solution, it's a very small part and IMO is getting far too much media attention already.

I have to disagree. EV's are linked to battery production/costs, and because of EVs we are now seeing a huge global investment in battery tech. Battery tech is already making batteries feasible for grid storage, and as it improves (8% improvement a year lately) batteries can help with energy usage in other sectors too. Grid, EV's, agriculture, buildings etc. All the sectors on the graph can be environmentally improved with the addition of batteries and will benefit from the decreasing costs of energy.

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#1965055 27-Feb-2018 13:21

Very compelling and sober reading

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/101793767/really-extreme-global-weather-event-leaves-scientists-aghast

gzt

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#1965084 27-Feb-2018 13:54

tdgeek:
GV27:

tdgeek:

Like solar, EV's are not supported at all. Charging stations are, so some people have got their heads screwed on, the rest is user sort out your car. Ive never seen an ad for an EV, everyone should know about them, how much they will save on fuel, and maintenance. There should be a Govt push on new EV and pre owned. Some assistance in the form of interest free loans for part of the cost, so the user can save money, pay it back and still be saving.

Why new EVs? If you can afford a $60K car brand new then you do not need a Govt subsidy for anything.

Two reasons.

If you can afford a new EV size car that's probably 40k. If I bought a 60k ICE it will be steps up from a 40k ICE, but the 60k EV is the same size and features of a 40k ICE. You cant seem to buy a new 40k EV unless I assume the range is too short and the car is too small.

Its not a subsidy, its an interest free loan, so the end cost to the Govt is small. Like any new type of product, take up is slow as its more expensive and its new. If takeup can be brought forward, the cars come to be common and normal. The subsidy starts today, and after one year, every 6 months it starts to reduce, so humans being humans, they will get in now, anything to help with money.

Same with solar. I can save money, but its too expensive or I dont want to commit, so loan me the cash, I will pay back a good portion of my savings so I am winning, and I have the future of keeping all those savings

I'd like a low interest EV loan. I'm not sure if get it. Either way, my feeling is the money is better spent on mass transit for lower pp CO2 cost.

tdgeek

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#1965104 27-Feb-2018 14:12

gzt:
I'd like a low interest EV loan. I'm not sure if get it. Either way, my feeling is the money is better spent on mass transit for lower pp CO2 cost.

I agree with that too, but you can have both. Mass transit costs. Interest free loans are not a cost, apart from lost interest, those funds come back over time.

Kiwis love cars so while mass transit will help it wont really help a huge amount, but any help is a gain.

We need to look at anything and everything that helps. In years to come kids will be amazed that we weren't 100% renewable for almost everything. That has to happen at some point.

gzt

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#1965345 27-Feb-2018 19:22

When mass transit works it changes the economics of owning a car. Assuming everything else is equal you get more choices:

Car + convenience or
Use mass transit + additional spending money

Most urban places cars are expensive to run, store, insure, etc. Mass transit is usually cheaper and faster. That's the economics we need to make it work and reduce CO2.

Fred99

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#1965373 27-Feb-2018 20:12

happyfunball:

Fred99:

Of that "transportation" segment, only part of it will be from private motor vehicles.

While I agree that driving an EV may be a small part of a global solution, it's a very small part and IMO is getting far too much media attention already.

I have to disagree. EV's are linked to battery production/costs, and because of EVs we are now seeing a huge global investment in battery tech. Battery tech is already making batteries feasible for grid storage, and as it improves (8% improvement a year lately) batteries can help with energy usage in other sectors too. Grid, EV's, agriculture, buildings etc. All the sectors on the graph can be environmentally improved with the addition of batteries and will benefit from the decreasing costs of energy.

Well yes - that's probably true about spin-off of EV battery tech to (grid) storage etc.

But that's a hell of bad way to plan for what's been known about for decades now, and I'd be more confident it has a future when Musk turns a profit - as despite incentives for EV, he hasn't yet.

tdgeek

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#1965375 27-Feb-2018 20:20

Fred99:

happyfunball:

Fred99:

Of that "transportation" segment, only part of it will be from private motor vehicles.

While I agree that driving an EV may be a small part of a global solution, it's a very small part and IMO is getting far too much media attention already.

I have to disagree. EV's are linked to battery production/costs, and because of EVs we are now seeing a huge global investment in battery tech. Battery tech is already making batteries feasible for grid storage, and as it improves (8% improvement a year lately) batteries can help with energy usage in other sectors too. Grid, EV's, agriculture, buildings etc. All the sectors on the graph can be environmentally improved with the addition of batteries and will benefit from the decreasing costs of energy.

Well yes - that's probably true about spin-off of EV battery tech to (grid) storage etc.

But that's a hell of bad way to plan for what's been known about for decades now, and I'd be more confident it has a future when Musk turns a profit - as despite incentives for EV, he hasn't yet.

On Musk, there are other EV brands, how do they compare? Is there a Toyota type brand that is better value as its not Mercedes/Tesla? If its a Toyota type car, plus the batteries, is that not a better option? What we need are standard brands, at standard prices.

MikeAqua

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#1965599 28-Feb-2018 10:32

tdgeek:

gzt:
I'd like a low interest EV loan. I'm not sure if get it. Either way, my feeling is the money is better spent on mass transit for lower pp CO2 cost.

...

Interest free loans are not a cost, apart from lost interest, those funds come back over time.

Very close to interest free loans are available on occasion for new cars. For example Honda are currently advertising finance of 1.7% on the CRV. Mazda often do low interest finance deals. In time one would expect them to become available for new EVs (assuming those companies release EVs into NZ).

I think it's unlikely that government would provide interest free loans for used EVs. The vehicle is the security and there is a higher level of risk with a used vehicle.

The (new) EV market is supply constrained in NZ.

No amount of tinkering will increase sales volume while manufacturers maintain zero - limited supply into the NZ market.

No manufacturer that meet western vehicle standards seems willing/able to churn out EV cars at a reasonable rate. Until that is sorted ...

Mike

happyfunball

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Ultimate Geek

#1965658 28-Feb-2018 11:21

MikeAqua:

No amount of tinkering will increase sales volume while manufacturers maintain zero - limited supply into the NZ market.

No manufacturer that meet western vehicle standards seems willing/able to churn out EV cars at a reasonable rate. Until that is sorted ...

Is there a supply shortage of new EV's? I thought it was low volume due to high prices?

I know Nissan stopped selling the NZ-new Leaf here because nobody was buying them at 60K when you could get a used post-Japanese subsidy one for half the price. It seems all the EV's sold here are in the 60k range which surely dampens the demand quite a bit.

The Nissan Leaf sells well in countries with an EV subsidy, so I don't think there is any supply shortage.

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