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  #2316902 13-Sep-2019 07:46
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Interesting How National is making as much political gain as they can, yet when they had their sex scandals what did Labour do. They said it they had nothing to do with it,  it was a National party issue.  Guess it shows the quality of the parties.


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  #2316904 13-Sep-2019 07:48
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GV27:

JWR:


I think you guys have lost the plot.


This shouldn't be a political issue.


There is claim of a serious crime here and most of the posts ignore that.


Investigate the original claim - not the political fallout.



Sorry JWR, but you now have senior politicians who appear to have made contradicting claims about what they knew and when, and on the face of it, may have mislead their our own leader, the media and therefore the public. Unfortunately, some of these people have been very vocal about sexual assault and victim's rights. 


Falling back on 'investigate the crime!' is a very convenient way to put weeks or months of distance between a serious question of integrity that so far involves the PM, her staff, the Finance Minister, the Labour Party ex-President and Acting President. Sorry, but there is a substantial public interest in this. 


 



Duncan Garner on the AM show this morning was basically saying the PM's credibility has gone from "hero to zero" over all this. Political opponents of Labour and the news media are just loving this story. However, if you were the complainant and your reports were getting sidelined, what would you do? Aren't there several things she could have done without it ending up being a so-called crisis for the Labour Party?

 
 
 
 


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  #2316912 13-Sep-2019 08:01
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gulfa:

 

Interesting How National is making as much political gain as they can, yet when they had their sex scandals what did Labour do. They said it they had nothing to do with it,  it was a National party issue.  Guess it shows the quality of the parties.

 

 

Your only contributions in the last few days have been trying to point out how somehow National is at fault in all this. Doesn't seem like you have any legitimate interest in this other than "NATIONAL = BAD!". 

 

Furthermore, I'd say other female MPs in Parliament have some skin in the game when there is someone with these sort of allegations hanging over them in the PMs office and with access to the buildings they're expected to work in, especially when the party which has been all talk about bullying and harassment (and the Speaker made a point about this going on in Parliament too, I remind you) has done nothing, and potentially even deliberately looked the other way. 


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  #2316919 13-Sep-2019 08:23
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GV27:

 

gulfa:

 

Interesting How National is making as much political gain as they can, yet when they had their sex scandals what did Labour do. They said it they had nothing to do with it,  it was a National party issue.  Guess it shows the quality of the parties.

 

 

Your only contributions in the last few days have been trying to point out how somehow National is at fault in all this. Doesn't seem like you have any legitimate interest in this other than "NATIONAL = BAD!". 

 

Furthermore, I'd say other female MPs in Parliament have some skin in the game when there is someone with these sort of allegations hanging over them in the PMs office and with access to the buildings they're expected to work in, especially when the party which has been all talk about bullying and harassment (and the Speaker made a point about this going on in Parliament too, I remind you) has done nothing, and potentially even deliberately looked the other way. 

 

 

He does have a point. The manner that each party acts when the other party has issues is vastly different. Take the Jamie Lee Ross debacle. Issues with JLR and  a female MP, she suggesting he tops himself, JLR covertly taping a conversation that showed how low Bridges is. Not interested in Indians get the Chinese guy and so on and so on. What an opportunity to go hard after them, but Labour left them alone to sort out their own mess. This thread also went dead as no one here was interested in rubbing anyones noses in the mud

 

It is different


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  #2316926 13-Sep-2019 08:40
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tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

gulfa:

 

Interesting How National is making as much political gain as they can, yet when they had their sex scandals what did Labour do. They said it they had nothing to do with it,  it was a National party issue.  Guess it shows the quality of the parties.

 

 

Your only contributions in the last few days have been trying to point out how somehow National is at fault in all this. Doesn't seem like you have any legitimate interest in this other than "NATIONAL = BAD!". 

 

Furthermore, I'd say other female MPs in Parliament have some skin in the game when there is someone with these sort of allegations hanging over them in the PMs office and with access to the buildings they're expected to work in, especially when the party which has been all talk about bullying and harassment (and the Speaker made a point about this going on in Parliament too, I remind you) has done nothing, and potentially even deliberately looked the other way. 

 

 

He does have a point. The manner that each party acts when the other party has issues is vastly different. Take the Jamie Lee Ross debacle. Issues with JLR and  a female MP, she suggesting he tops himself, JLR covertly taping a conversation that showed how low Bridges is. Not interested in Indians get the Chinese guy and so on and so on. What an opportunity to go hard after them, but Labour left them alone to sort out their own mess. This thread also went dead as no one here was interested in rubbing anyones noses in the mud

 

It is different

 

 

This is more a function of being in opposition or in power. Think back to the crowing/baying Labour did whilst in opposition and how National dealt with the Labour issues when they were in opposition.

 

You are ALWAYS going to be under more scrutiny whilst in power, and your decisions around how you deal with a crisis or issue is going to garner attention as it has a much larger impact.


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  #2316927 13-Sep-2019 08:45
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networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

gulfa:

 

Interesting How National is making as much political gain as they can, yet when they had their sex scandals what did Labour do. They said it they had nothing to do with it,  it was a National party issue.  Guess it shows the quality of the parties.

 

 

Your only contributions in the last few days have been trying to point out how somehow National is at fault in all this. Doesn't seem like you have any legitimate interest in this other than "NATIONAL = BAD!". 

 

Furthermore, I'd say other female MPs in Parliament have some skin in the game when there is someone with these sort of allegations hanging over them in the PMs office and with access to the buildings they're expected to work in, especially when the party which has been all talk about bullying and harassment (and the Speaker made a point about this going on in Parliament too, I remind you) has done nothing, and potentially even deliberately looked the other way. 

 

 

He does have a point. The manner that each party acts when the other party has issues is vastly different. Take the Jamie Lee Ross debacle. Issues with JLR and  a female MP, she suggesting he tops himself, JLR covertly taping a conversation that showed how low Bridges is. Not interested in Indians get the Chinese guy and so on and so on. What an opportunity to go hard after them, but Labour left them alone to sort out their own mess. This thread also went dead as no one here was interested in rubbing anyones noses in the mud

 

It is different

 

 

This is more a function of being in opposition or in power. Think back to the crowing/baying Labour did whilst in opposition and how National dealt with the Labour issues when they were in opposition.

 

You are ALWAYS going to be under more scrutiny whilst in power, and your decisions around how you deal with a crisis or issue is going to garner attention as it has a much larger impact.

 

 

No. The mindset is clearly different, always has been to one extent or another.


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  #2316934 13-Sep-2019 08:46
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tdgeek:

 

He does have a point. The manner that each party acts when the other party has issues is vastly different. Take the Jamie Lee Ross debacle. Issues with JLR and  a female MP, she suggesting he tops himself, JLR covertly taping a conversation that showed how low Bridges is. Not interested in Indians get the Chinese guy and so on and so on. What an opportunity to go hard after them, but Labour left them alone to sort out their own mess. This thread also went dead as no one here was interested in rubbing anyones noses in the mud

 

It is different

 

 

This thread went dead because it's about Labour's response to sexual assault allegations. 

 

I am amazed at how people will read through a discussion about something like this and contribute nothing to the actual discussion other than to take potshots at National or Bridges, zero scrutiny or contribution that is actually relevant to the party in the topic title.

 

So what is the 'correct' response? Should MPs look the other way while the PM and her senior MPs make conflicting and contradictory statements about sexual assault, after the Speaker has made comments like this? 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112903053/speaker-trevor-mallard-believes-bullying-report-alleges-rapes-in-parliament

 

This person was in a workplace that they too still have to work in.

 

Because it's really really hard to interpret that as "I don't care what Labour does, or what they say, or who they mislead, as long as it's not National".

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2316941 13-Sep-2019 08:58
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

He does have a point. The manner that each party acts when the other party has issues is vastly different. Take the Jamie Lee Ross debacle. Issues with JLR and  a female MP, she suggesting he tops himself, JLR covertly taping a conversation that showed how low Bridges is. Not interested in Indians get the Chinese guy and so on and so on. What an opportunity to go hard after them, but Labour left them alone to sort out their own mess. This thread also went dead as no one here was interested in rubbing anyones noses in the mud

 

It is different

 

 

This thread went dead because it's about Labour's response to sexual assault allegations. 

 

I am amazed at how people will read through a discussion about something like this and contribute nothing to the actual discussion other than to take potshots at National or Bridges, zero scrutiny or contribution that is actually relevant to the party in the topic title.

 

So what is the 'correct' response? Should MPs look the other way while the PM and her senior MPs make conflicting and contradictory statements about sexual assault, after the Speaker has made comments like this? 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112903053/speaker-trevor-mallard-believes-bullying-report-alleges-rapes-in-parliament

 

This person was in a workplace that they too still have to work in.

 

Because it's really really hard to interpret that as "I don't care what Labour does, or what they say, or who they mislead, as long as it's not National".

 

 

 

 

 

 

The thread that went dead that I referred to was the JLR saga. No potshots, Gulfa offered no potshots, just a theme that occurs. The responses since give an indication as to the mindset. I'm not sure why you are talking about what Gulfa said and then relating that back to this incident? As I type this no doubt an angry reply from another here :-)  Are you saying that those who  dont support National are choosing to ignore this incident?


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  #2316943 13-Sep-2019 08:59
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I don't even understand why National is featuring in this discussion. It's pretty much irrelevant what they do or don't say (It's background noise at most and should be discarded as such), it only matters what Labour has and does say and do.


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  #2316951 13-Sep-2019 09:13
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Its politics, its about noise and grandstanding, its not background noise at most, that's just marginalising it, but it does show my point very clearly

 

As for Labour, she has fired the Party Leader, and offered support for the victims. I'm surprised the Police havent opened their own case on this, its a criminal offence, they dont need a complaint. As for anyone else in the Labour Party who is involved with this as well as the fired leader, they need to go as well, a point I have already made


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  #2317028 13-Sep-2019 10:04
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tdgeek:

 

Its politics, its about noise and grandstanding, its not background noise at most, that's just marginalising it, but it does show my point very clearly

 

As for Labour, she has fired the Party Leader, and offered support for the victims. I'm surprised the Police havent opened their own case on this, its a criminal offence, they dont need a complaint. As for anyone else in the Labour Party who is involved with this as well as the fired leader, they need to go as well, a point I have already made

 

 

The issue here is how one political party had decided to try and cover up serious criminal behavior by one of its own against its own. It is the Opposition who is trying to hold Labour to account. Without National this would have been a perfect cover up except for the damage done to the inflicted party/parties. If Labour had dealt with this in a proper manner it wouldnt be news.


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  #2317039 13-Sep-2019 10:13
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Mahon:

 

tdgeek:

 

Its politics, its about noise and grandstanding, its not background noise at most, that's just marginalising it, but it does show my point very clearly

 

As for Labour, she has fired the Party Leader, and offered support for the victims. I'm surprised the Police havent opened their own case on this, its a criminal offence, they dont need a complaint. As for anyone else in the Labour Party who is involved with this as well as the fired leader, they need to go as well, a point I have already made

 

 

The issue here is how one political party had decided to try and cover up serious criminal behavior by one of its own against its own. It is the Opposition who is trying to hold Labour to account. Without National this would have been a perfect cover up except for the damage done to the inflicted party/parties. If Labour had dealt with this in a proper manner it wouldnt be news.

 

 

LOL cobblers. If National had not spoken up this is all a secret???? Funny

 

As for "The issue here is how one political party had decided to try and cover up serious criminal behavior by one of its own against its own."  who here disagrees with that?? Nodody as far as I can see. I have no idea what your point is. Note that its actually "members of said political party" One has been fired, and Im not aware of anyone who has an issue with other firings if and when further people are proven.

 

 


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  #2317068 13-Sep-2019 11:01
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I have decided to mostly stay out of this until verifiable facts are presented or the investigation is complete. I don't think anyone here fundamentally disagrees on the basic principles. If anyone committed any form of sexual assault (or any other assault, for that matter), that must be investigated and prosecuted. If any ranking member of the Labour Party was involved in any form of cover-up, that must be fully revealed and appropriate action taken. The complainants must be heard and their stories taken seriously, but they should not be immune from proper scrutiny. The goal has to be to get to the truth of the matter, whatever that may be. Until then, anything anyone says is just opinion and speculation, and probably not terribly helpful. This matter has now reached a point of critical mass where it is no longer possible to conceal the truth, even if some would like to. One way or another, the real facts will come out. When they do will be the time to pass judgement.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2317083 13-Sep-2019 11:28
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The problem is you have senior government MPs being named as having known about the issues; there is a sufficient level of public interest in this for them not to just say "oh, I'm not commenting until the investigation is done" is just playing for time. 

 

How seriously is Labour taking it? Well, the terms of reference for the investigation haven't even been set. 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/115694027/complaints-about-labour-party-staffer-taken-to-his-employer

 

After the complainants went public, the party agreed to hire Maria Dew QC to re-investigate. The terms of reference for her inquiry are still being finalised.

 

They already had a disciplinary hearing about this, and decided no action would be taken. They can't just keep announcing reviews and inquiries and then deciding it absolves them of inaction or an obligation to clarify when they have potentially made misleading statements. 

 

As for this:

 

 

Labour's acting president was a member of the panel that held an investigation earlier this year into sexual assault allegations against a Labour Party staffer.

 

 

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/labour-s-new-president-also-panel-investigated-allegations-against-staffer

 

 

 

Yea, this is going to go swell. I ask then, at what point do you think we should be applying scrutiny?

 

 

 

After the first investigation that did nothing?

 

 

 

After the complaints came out in public due to the victim's experience?

 

 

 

After the Party President insisted he didn't know, but it turns out multiple people have documentation provided to the party and have said they raised it directly with him? 

 


After he resigned?

 

 

 

After Labour appointed an acting President who was part of the first investigation? 

 

 

 

How many ball-drops do you put up with before you stop picking the guy with no arms as halfback? 

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  #2317086 13-Sep-2019 11:33
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Forget about politics for a moment. If a sexual assault occurred, this is a serious crime. So are the police investigating it? If not, why?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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