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Devastation by stupidity
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  #2319079 17-Sep-2019 11:27
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Mahon:

 

I am sure the truth is well known and has been for sometime. Holding 2 more enquiries, is handing the tough decisions to someone else. Any form of sexual abuse should be handed to the Police.

 

 

It is trying to uncover the actual truth. 

 

Labour has stuffed up badly. No question about that. Their procedures for dealing with this kind of matter and their actions after the fact are inexcusable. 

 

However, I believe there is more to this than the media headlines. For example, original panel member Simon Mitchell has hired a forensics expert to prove he did not receive any allegations of sexual misconduct. Why would he do that? As far as I know, no complaint has yet been made to the police. If there was a sexual assault, why has this seemingly obvious step not been taken, and don't the police have an obligation to investigate something like this anyway? Jacinda Ardern has repeatedly offered to meet with the complainants. I believe something may now be underway, but so far they have not taken her up on the offer. All this and other things suggest to me that there is more to this than what has been reported so far. Labour has made a dog's breakfast of the whole sorry business, but I will wait for the conclusions of the investigations before rushing to judgement. Some here seem awful eager to stick the knife in. By all means hold anyone who has covered up or lied to account but wait until the facts are known before organising a lynch mob. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


JWR

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  #2319290 17-Sep-2019 16:21

GV27:

 

JWR:

 

I think you guys have lost the plot.

 

This shouldn't be a political issue.

 

There is claim of a serious crime here and most of the posts ignore that.

 

Investigate the original claim - not the political fallout.

 

 

Sorry JWR, but you now have senior politicians who appear to have made contradicting claims about what they knew and when, and on the face of it, may have mislead their our own leader, the media and therefore the public. Unfortunately, some of these people have been very vocal about sexual assault and victim's rights. 

 

Falling back on 'investigate the crime!' is a very convenient way to put weeks or months of distance between a serious question of integrity that so far involves the PM, her staff, the Finance Minister, the Labour Party ex-President and Acting President. Sorry, but there is a substantial public interest in this. 

 

 

 

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.


 
 
 
 


JWR

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  #2319301 17-Sep-2019 16:34

frednz:
GV27:

 

JWR:

 

 

 

I think you guys have lost the plot.

 

 

 

This shouldn't be a political issue.

 

 

 

There is claim of a serious crime here and most of the posts ignore that.

 

 

 

Investigate the original claim - not the political fallout.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry JWR, but you now have senior politicians who appear to have made contradicting claims about what they knew and when, and on the face of it, may have mislead their our own leader, the media and therefore the public. Unfortunately, some of these people have been very vocal about sexual assault and victim's rights. 

 

 

 

Falling back on 'investigate the crime!' is a very convenient way to put weeks or months of distance between a serious question of integrity that so far involves the PM, her staff, the Finance Minister, the Labour Party ex-President and Acting President. Sorry, but there is a substantial public interest in this. 

 

 

 

 

 



Duncan Garner on the AM show this morning was basically saying the PM's credibility has gone from "hero to zero" over all this. Political opponents of Labour and the news media are just loving this story. However, if you were the complainant and your reports were getting sidelined, what would you do? Aren't there several things she could have done without it ending up being a so-called crisis for the Labour Party?

 

I don't think Duncan Garner is credible on many political issues. This is another.


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  #2319305 17-Sep-2019 16:53
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JWR:

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.

 

 

For a start, that's not how courts work. Courts prove something happened beyond all reasonable doubt, or that it can't be proven that it did to that level of certainty. 

 

You're also ignoring the firestorm is over contradicting statements made about the nature of the allegations and who knew when. I'm not sure how anything to do with a court case would be even relevant here.


Devastation by stupidity
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  #2319306 17-Sep-2019 17:07
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Has anyone tried to take 'all the contradictory statements' and place them side by side? All I know about is a claim that Grant Robertson was told of the sexual assault accusation in June. If he was, that would make him look bad for sitting on it so long, but as far as I know he hasn't said anything about it. If he did know, and he told Ardern, that would make her look very bad but there is no contradictory statement here because Robertson hasn't said anything. So am I missing something? What other 'contradictory statements' are there? 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


JWR

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  #2319315 17-Sep-2019 17:30

GV27:

 

JWR:

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.

 

 

For a start, that's not how courts work. Courts prove something happened beyond all reasonable doubt, or that it can't be proven that it did to that level of certainty. 

 

You're also ignoring the firestorm is over contradicting statements made about the nature of the allegations and who knew when. I'm not sure how anything to do with a court case would be even relevant here.

 

 

I made no claim over how courts work. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

I was simplistic over 'crime then court'. The real world is always more complex than that.

 

But, if a serious crime is claimed, with evidence, then surely we expect the Police to investigate.


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  #2319371 17-Sep-2019 18:56
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GV27:

 

JWR:

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.

 

 

For a start, that's not how courts work. Courts prove something happened beyond all reasonable doubt, or that it can't be proven that it did to that level of certainty. 

 

You're also ignoring the firestorm is over contradicting statements made about the nature of the allegations and who knew when. I'm not sure how anything to do with a court case would be even relevant here.

 

 

What I see here is this.

 

There were crimes of rape and sexual assault, none of which directly affects the Government, it affects some in an organisation, the Labour Party nit the Labour Government. yes there is hearsay over who new what, and I agree thats poor to out it mildly. But its not like elected senior MP;s committed these crimes. Unless you support National I guess. Get some balance. If you want senior MP's convicted, say so. I guess what irks me is when I hear a certain tape all I see is low life gutter deviousness. Id prefer stupid responses any day, than filth politics.


 
 
 
 


JWR

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  #2319385 17-Sep-2019 19:22

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

JWR:

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.

 

 

For a start, that's not how courts work. Courts prove something happened beyond all reasonable doubt, or that it can't be proven that it did to that level of certainty. 

 

You're also ignoring the firestorm is over contradicting statements made about the nature of the allegations and who knew when. I'm not sure how anything to do with a court case would be even relevant here.

 

 

What I see here is this.

 

There were crimes of rape and sexual assault, none of which directly affects the Government, it affects some in an organisation, the Labour Party nit the Labour Government. yes there is hearsay over who new what, and I agree thats poor to out it mildly. But its not like elected senior MP;s committed these crimes. Unless you support National I guess. Get some balance. If you want senior MP's convicted, say so. I guess what irks me is when I hear a certain tape all I see is low life gutter deviousness. Id prefer stupid responses any day, than filth politics.

 

 

Rape?

 

You have added rape to the list of alleged crimes. This was never part of any allegation.

 

You are perverting the narrative.


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  #2319389 17-Sep-2019 19:30
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JWR:

 

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

JWR:

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.

 

 

For a start, that's not how courts work. Courts prove something happened beyond all reasonable doubt, or that it can't be proven that it did to that level of certainty. 

 

You're also ignoring the firestorm is over contradicting statements made about the nature of the allegations and who knew when. I'm not sure how anything to do with a court case would be even relevant here.

 

 

What I see here is this.

 

There were crimes of rape and sexual assault, none of which directly affects the Government, it affects some in an organisation, the Labour Party nit the Labour Government. yes there is hearsay over who new what, and I agree thats poor to out it mildly. But its not like elected senior MP;s committed these crimes. Unless you support National I guess. Get some balance. If you want senior MP's convicted, say so. I guess what irks me is when I hear a certain tape all I see is low life gutter deviousness. Id prefer stupid responses any day, than filth politics.

 

 

Rape?

 

You have added rape to the list of alleged crimes. This was never part of any allegation.

 

You are perverting the narrative.

 

 

Ok, fair enough so sexual assault and two fired makes it fine and less serious, ok, got that


JWR

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  #2319399 17-Sep-2019 19:46

tdgeek:

 

JWR:

 

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

JWR:

 

Ok. But, to ignore the possible criminality here, also ignores that the allegations may be untrue.

 

If serious crime, then court case.

 

 

For a start, that's not how courts work. Courts prove something happened beyond all reasonable doubt, or that it can't be proven that it did to that level of certainty. 

 

You're also ignoring the firestorm is over contradicting statements made about the nature of the allegations and who knew when. I'm not sure how anything to do with a court case would be even relevant here.

 

 

What I see here is this.

 

There were crimes of rape and sexual assault, none of which directly affects the Government, it affects some in an organisation, the Labour Party nit the Labour Government. yes there is hearsay over who new what, and I agree thats poor to out it mildly. But its not like elected senior MP;s committed these crimes. Unless you support National I guess. Get some balance. If you want senior MP's convicted, say so. I guess what irks me is when I hear a certain tape all I see is low life gutter deviousness. Id prefer stupid responses any day, than filth politics.

 

 

Rape?

 

You have added rape to the list of alleged crimes. This was never part of any allegation.

 

You are perverting the narrative.

 

 

Ok, fair enough so sexual assault and two fired makes it fine and less serious, ok, got that

 

 

Seriously? I think you must be blinded by your political biases. Because, your post makes no sense to me.


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  #2319406 17-Sep-2019 19:55
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JWR:

 

 

 

Seriously? I think you must be blinded by your political biases. Because, your post makes no sense to me.

 

 

Yeah right. Forget the offenders, lets go after the PM etc they are the evil ones. Biases, yeah right. The pity here is the actual offenders are merely a passing thought, if that. Same for the victims. Thats a sad state of affairs if you ask me. 


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  #2319503 17-Sep-2019 22:03
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tdgeek:

 

JWR:

 

 

 

Seriously? I think you must be blinded by your political biases. Because, your post makes no sense to me.

 

 

Yeah right. Forget the offenders, lets go after the PM etc they are the evil ones. Biases, yeah right. The pity here is the actual offenders are merely a passing thought, if that. Same for the victims. Thats a sad state of affairs if you ask me. 

 

 

Thats a silly comment. We all know the PM and Robertson have no guilt or such on these particular allegations. It is possible that they are trying to coverup something that is/was going on. The question is that after two such alleged sexual violations within the party, why on earth would they not come clean, deal with it and put it behind them. The whole thing makes no sense at all and yes it has seriously tarnished everyone who has touched it and shows no signs of going away. The truth will come out, it always does.


Devastation by stupidity
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  #2319521 17-Sep-2019 22:40
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And that is precisely why we should patiently wait until it does.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2319556 18-Sep-2019 06:53
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Rikkitic:

 

And that is precisely why we should patiently wait until it does.

 

 

...which is fine if you don't have people from within the party coming out and questioning the credibility of the complainants while the leadership hides behind the QC inquiry to avoid answering questions about things the QC isn't even looking into.


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  #2319967 18-Sep-2019 19:00
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GV27:

 

Rikkitic:

 

And that is precisely why we should patiently wait until it does.

 

 

...which is fine if you don't have people from within the party coming out and questioning the credibility of the complainants while the leadership hides behind the QC inquiry to avoid answering questions about things the QC isn't even looking into.

 

 

Again, who is saying the complainants are false? 

 

Would it be better to end the QC inquiry and ask the leadership to come clean? The leadership, if they were smart, and ion they followed others, would smile and ignore. Let the inquiry happen. In any case Labour is screwed.


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