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Reply # 1973966 13-Mar-2018 13:49

I was wondering, if the PM stepped down over the handling of this (more than a little unlikely), Winston becomes PM. I assume he cannot demote/sack a Labour party member at any level, even with his PM powers. I would be curious to know what their agreement on this is.

As much as I think JA isn't fit for this job, she is somewhat better than WP.

gulfa

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Reply # 1973992 13-Mar-2018 14:14

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"You are going to end up walking around in circles with that chip on your shoulder"

From another post in Geekzone LOL

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networkn

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Reply # 1973996 13-Mar-2018 14:18

gulfa:

"You are going to end up walking around in circles with that chip on your shoulder"

From another post in Geekzone LOL

As usual, not on topic. I asked a very simple question about the chain of command. Seems reasonable considering heads are likely to roll, though in true Labour fashion, not in any meaningful way.

Why don't you comment on the allegations? What about how it's being handled? Do you approve? What is your take on Jacinda's leadership during the issue?

gulfa

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Reply # 1974022 13-Mar-2018 14:51

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First of all What has happened to these young people is disgusting, and needs to be addressed by what ever means (police etc.) These young people are the victims but no where in this forum do I see sympathy for them

They have been placed in the centre of media attention and I am sure they are very embarrassed by this. Whether they wanted their parents to know is up to them. What I do see is some people on this forum trying to make political POINTS OUT OF THIS EVENT. Calling for the PM resignation is ridiculous How can you blame her, do we blame parents when their family get into difficulties and ask for their resignation. Did JK resign after the Pony tail event? Did BE resign after the text affairs? Come on get with it. We know by now that there is a group of people who Dislike JA because why? She is a young woman she's pregnant she speaks her mind she is well respected by many political commentators here in NZ and overseas, her popularity is growing, she might be learning on the Job but we all do that or we are not good leaders I could go on but as usual I would be wasting my time. My main concern is for these young victims and how they are going to be supported. Social Media has a lot to answer for and I am sure that this will be a huge concern for them and their families. Sometimes I believe that moderators of sites like this should show sympathy for victims and end the conversations. I have had my say again and will not be responding further

networkn

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Reply # 1974027 13-Mar-2018 15:03

gulfa:

First of all What has happened to these young people is disgusting, and needs to be addressed by what ever means (police etc.) These young people are the victims but no where in this forum do I see sympathy for them

They have been placed in the centre of media attention and I am sure they are very embarrassed by this. Whether they wanted their parents to know is up to them. What I do see is some people on this forum trying to make political POINTS OUT OF THIS EVENT. Calling for the PM resignation is ridiculous How can you blame her, do we blame parents when their family get into difficulties and ask for their resignation. Did JK resign after the Pony tail event? Did BE resign after the text affairs? Come on get with it. We know by now that there is a group of people who Dislike JA because why? She is a young woman she's pregnant she speaks her mind she is well respected by many political commentators here in NZ and overseas, her popularity is growing, she might be learning on the Job but we all do that or we are not good leaders I could go on but as usual I would be wasting my time. My main concern is for these young victims and how they are going to be supported. Social Media has a lot to answer for and I am sure that this will be a huge concern for them and their families. Sometimes I believe that moderators of sites like this should show sympathy for victims and end the conversations. I have had my say again and will not be responding further

I think you are having another comprehension failure. No one is blaming JA for the sexual abuse, but entirely rightly so, people aren't happy with her handling of the process that followed on. She is in no way responsible up to and including the moment she was notified.

She so far has acted in a very poor manner in dealing with those who did make the mistakes.

These are serious allegations and in my view the only time anyone has called for her resignation is if she fails to strongly discipline those who made mistakes in dealing with the issue. There are at least 3 people who should be on suspension already but instead of that, and without a proper investigation she has stated Kirton will not be fired/resign. This is awful management.

If you can't see past your blind faith in her to give that honest assessment, I agree, further discussion would be pointless.

Fred99

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Reply # 1974033 13-Mar-2018 15:19

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Would you agree with the expert comments:

"Victims should always have power over their own process."

It was up to the survivors whether to tell anyone about an incident, or report it to police. This gave them autonomy and control over the situation.

Telling other parties on their behalf risked re-traumatising the victims.

In terms of age, the survivors were all aged 16, the age of consent. Regardless of age, police or others should only be notified by a third party, and matter escalated, if the person was in danger of harming themselves, she said.

If so, then does this expert advice serve to de-escalate a sensationalised politicised story somewhat?

If not, then why not?

(end an edit - I'm not comfortable with all of that - I disagree about the "regardless of age" comment, witnesses to sexual assault of minors should always notify police. I'm wondering if that comment has been reported accurately - it seems a bit odd)

networkn

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Reply # 1974063 13-Mar-2018 15:49

That is one expert opinion. There would be plenty of experts who would disagree I am quite certain.

This "experts" credibility is questionable at best at the comment "regardless of age". At 16 I don't believe a person is mature enough in general to understand the variety of potentially complex emotions or ability to cope on their own. I am a parent and have been responsible for a few 16 years olds, and I would be RAGING if this was kept from me. We have young kids and our one of our primary goals is to instill in our kids that no matter what the issue, we would like to know about it.

I would suggest 18 would be the youngest possible age. I don't think a blanket age is appropriate either. I know some 15 years that MIGHT cope and some 21 years olds I am certain would not cope and would greatly benefit (Or would find it essential to have the support of a parent.

I don't believe this was sensationalised. I would be just as outraged if it was a National party matter.

Age of consent isn't relevant in my view, if consent WASN'T given. Age of consent in this argument seems to indicate it's more acceptable to sexually assault someone of age than not of age.

gzt

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Reply # 1974082 13-Mar-2018 16:08

6FIEND: This deserves its own thread, rather than being buried on page 109 of another...

Agree. Same goes for most sensible posts in that thread.

gzt

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Reply # 1974086 13-Mar-2018 16:17

6FIEND: The Labour Party determined that multiple sexual assaults should not be referred to the Police, but that they could be dealt with as an internal disciplinary matter.

The article does not use those words at all. Even so, that is exactly the impression.

Looks like you feel as I do that this was an assault on minors and should have been reported to the police.

Anyone know a good reason that should not be the case? The age of majority is 18 is it not?

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=age+of+majority+nz

networkn

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Reply # 1974092 13-Mar-2018 16:24

gzt:
6FIEND: The Labour Party determined that multiple sexual assaults should not be referred to the Police, but that they could be dealt with as an internal disciplinary matter.

The article does not use those words at all. Even so, that is exactly the impression. That said looks like you feel as I do that this was an assault on minors and should have been reported to the police. Anyone know a reason that should not be the case?

What, other than it might make Labour look bad? (Which I believe is the reason the actions were taken that were) No I can't think of a single other reason.

I am not being as snarky as it might seem I am being, I just believe that would be the only good reason.

There is an interesting moral conundrum here...

IF the parents were informed, and between the parents and the child concerned they decided no action was desired, then is there still an imperative that overrides that to stop this young man from doing this again, surely?

6FIEND

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Reply # 1974100 13-Mar-2018 16:33

gzt:
6FIEND: The Labour Party determined that multiple sexual assaults should not be referred to the Police, but that they could be dealt with as an internal disciplinary matter.

The article does not use those words at all. Even so, that is exactly the impression.

This is a direct quote from the linked article:

"We took the decision to deal with it as a party issue and keep it between myself and the president and keep it tight in terms of the people who knew."

Also:

"I have subsequently banned the perpetrator from any future Labour Party events,"

I don't believe that my comments quoted above are misleading? It certainly was not my intent.

Fred99

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Reply # 1974129 13-Mar-2018 16:55

gzt:
6FIEND: The Labour Party determined that multiple sexual assaults should not be referred to the Police, but that they could be dealt with as an internal disciplinary matter.

The article does not use those words at all. Even so, that is exactly the impression.

Looks like you feel as I do that this was an assault on minors and should have been reported to the police.

Anyone know a good reason that should not be the case? The age of majority is 18 is it not?

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=age+of+majority+nz

The age of consent (16) is what matters in this case.

So no - it should not necessarily have been reported to police by anyone other than the alleged victims.

freitasm

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Reply # 1974130 13-Mar-2018 16:59

Even if at age of consent, if no consent was asked and none give the act is still unlawful and should be treated carefully. Sometimes a victim may not be in condition to consider reporting or not but it is not up to a party secretary to decide it. Parents should've been contacted Immediately.

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Fred99

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Reply # 1974132 13-Mar-2018 17:06

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networkn:

That is one expert opinion. There would be plenty of experts who would disagree I am quite certain.

This "experts" credibility is questionable at best at the comment "regardless of age". At 16 I don't believe a person is mature enough in general to understand the variety of potentially complex emotions or ability to cope on their own. I am a parent and have been responsible for a few 16 years olds, and I would be RAGING if this was kept from me. We have young kids and our one of our primary goals is to instill in our kids that no matter what the issue, we would like to know about it.

I would suggest 18 would be the youngest possible age. I don't think a blanket age is appropriate either. I know some 15 years that MIGHT cope and some 21 years olds I am certain would not cope and would greatly benefit (Or would find it essential to have the support of a parent.

I don't believe this was sensationalised. I would be just as outraged if it was a National party matter.

Age of consent isn't relevant in my view, if consent WASN'T given. Age of consent in this argument seems to indicate it's more acceptable to sexually assault someone of age than not of age.

Please feel free to find an expert who presents an alternative view.

I've now read and heard enough as to why several experts believe that it's up to the victims to report the incident to police - and potentially damaging to the victims for another party to "take over" their rights. You seem to be expressing some kind of moral outrage and clearly wish primarily for this to harm a political party you don't like, and don't give a rat's backside how this might impact the victims.

If you want to petition government to raise the age of consent, go ahead. It will fail.

Surely enough is enough - wish you'd stop behaving like a pack of vultures.

freitasm

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Reply # 1974135 13-Mar-2018 17:08

The discussion is not and should not be about age. Abuse is abuse regardless. The discussion is about a party secretary making decisions, hiding those from the Prime Minister, who is them surprised when things come out like this and is not quick enough to decide to put some people to the side until clarification is achieved.

I voted Labour and think they are wrong here.

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