Kia Ora: Should this be used in official Government correspondence?

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#1997566 17-Apr-2018 09:37

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102953158/rotorua-mayor-hears-positive-sign-language

Plans for a bilingual welcome to Rotorua road sign may proceed after the New Zealand Transport Agency said it was willing to work with Rotorua Lakes Council on the issue.

Plans for the signage, part of a push to establish Rotorua as New Zealand's first official bilingual city, had hit a roadblock after the NZTA cited rules that required signs to be in English.

So what we have been talking about here is now being extended to road signs.

Waiariki Labour MP Tamati Coffey said he believed there has been initial confusion around the signage that was initially proposed but believed it was "only a matter of time before it happens".

He also said the issue could begin a national conversation on the issue and the wider acceptance of te reo in New Zealand, and a possible challenge for other communities too.

So this thread is part of the "national conversation" on the issue of the wider acceptance of te reo in New Zealand.

Tamati Coffey's comment that there has been "initial confusion" is understandable and it will take a while before all of us get to grips with the concept of lots of things being changed from just English, to a combination of English and te reo.

I guess on the other side of the coin, things written in te reo also have a little English included here and there?

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MikeB4

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#1997573 17-Apr-2018 09:50

frednz:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102953158/rotorua-mayor-hears-positive-sign-language

Plans for a bilingual welcome to Rotorua road sign may proceed after the New Zealand Transport Agency said it was willing to work with Rotorua Lakes Council on the issue.

Plans for the signage, part of a push to establish Rotorua as New Zealand's first official bilingual city, had hit a roadblock after the NZTA cited rules that required signs to be in English.

So what we have been talking about here is now being extended to road signs.

Waiariki Labour MP Tamati Coffey said he believed there has been initial confusion around the signage that was initially proposed but believed it was "only a matter of time before it happens".

He also said the issue could begin a national conversation on the issue and the wider acceptance of te reo in New Zealand, and a possible challenge for other communities too.

So this thread is part of the "national conversation" on the issue of the wider acceptance of te reo in New Zealand.

Tamati Coffey's comment that there has been "initial confusion" is understandable and it will take a while before all of us get to grips with the concept of lots of things being changed from just English, to a combination of English and te reo.

I guess on the other side of the coin, things written in te reo also have a little English included here and there?

These things should not cause a hassle they should just happen. Te reo is official and councils, NZTA etc should just use it. A point to ponder Dannevirke has had signs saying "Farvel" for many decades without issue.

MikeAqua

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#1997587 17-Apr-2018 09:57

frednz:

I guess on the other side of the coin, things written in te reo also have a little English included here and there?

And lots of transliterations. My only objection to bilingual signage (observations from other countries) is they need to be twice as big or letters half the size or information content reduced.

Singapore seems to have sensible approach. They have several official languages but use English as the common language and the language of education/govt because it's the most commonly spoken language. Kids learn English + another official language.

If we adopted that approach in NZ, kids would have to learn Te Reo or Sign as well as English.

Mike

Fred99

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#1997595 17-Apr-2018 10:02

MikeB4:

These things should not cause a hassle they should just happen. Te reo is official and councils, NZTA etc should just use it. A point to ponder Dannevirke has had signs saying "Farvel" for many decades without issue.

Another point to ponder, I've been told that "v" in danish is pronounced like "w" (not sure if that is "wh" or just plain "w"). Anyway, my point was that vikings seem much less fearsome if they're pronounced correctly.

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#1997623 17-Apr-2018 10:19

Fred99:
MikeB4:

These things should not cause a hassle they should just happen. Te reo is official and councils, NZTA etc should just use it. A point to ponder Dannevirke has had signs saying "Farvel" for many decades without issue.

Another point to ponder, I've been told that "v" in danish is pronounced like "w" (not sure if that is "wh" or just plain "w"). Anyway, my point was that vikings seem much less fearsome if they're pronounced correctly.

We are gentle folk🙂

MikeAqua

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#1997970 17-Apr-2018 16:35

Fred99:

Another point to ponder, I've been told that "v" in danish is pronounced like "w" (not sure if that is "wh" or just plain "w"). Anyway, my point was that vikings seem much less fearsome if they're pronounced correctly.

Yes and Blood Eagle is incorrect too, it was actually pronounced Blood Beagle. Much less horrific when it sounds like a small cute dog.

In that context it's so much worse that King AElla couldn't take it like a man.

Mike

frednz

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#2009081 7-May-2018 11:05

Hi I'm in a cafe and next to me are two Maori elders who are speaking to each other in English. That's fine but I thought they might have used Te Reo. Do Maori people often speak English to each other in preference to Te Reo?

Fred99

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#2009090 7-May-2018 11:21

frednz: Hi I'm in a cafe and next to me are two Maori elders who are speaking to each other in English. That's fine but I thought they might have used Te Reo. Do Maori people often speak English to each other in preference to Te Reo?

Maori elders are quite likely to not be fluent as they're quite possibly from a demographic who lived through a reality that they were discouraged and possibly punished for speaking Te Reo, especially in schools at the time they were probably attending.

One of my good friends is a respected Ngai Tahu kaumatua, even though his parents were fluent, he's certainly not able to converse.

But I'm confident that he'd take offense at your post, which seems to suggest that Maori shouldn't speak English to each other if they are fluent in Te Reo, and he'd give you a much more direct and cutting response than I am - in very fluent and perhaps very "colourful" english and with a bit of luck throwing in a bit of Maori slang to help you get the picture.

frednz

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#2009399 7-May-2018 17:11

Fred99:

frednz: Hi I'm in a cafe and next to me are two Maori elders who are speaking to each other in English. That's fine but I thought they might have used Te Reo. Do Maori people often speak English to each other in preference to Te Reo?

Maori elders are quite likely to not be fluent as they're quite possibly from a demographic who lived through a reality that they were discouraged and possibly punished for speaking Te Reo, especially in schools at the time they were probably attending.

One of my good friends is a respected Ngai Tahu kaumatua, even though his parents were fluent, he's certainly not able to converse.

But I'm confident that he'd take offense at your post, which seems to suggest that Maori shouldn't speak English to each other if they are fluent in Te Reo, and he'd give you a much more direct and cutting response than I am - in very fluent and perhaps very "colourful" english and with a bit of luck throwing in a bit of Maori slang to help you get the picture.

I see there has been some research done about how many Māori can hold a conversation about everyday things in te reo:

In 2006:

131,613 (23.7 per cent) of Māori could hold a conversation about everyday things in te reo
One-quarter of Māori aged 15 to 64 could hold a conversation in te reo
Just under half (48.7 per cent) of Māori aged 65 years and over could hold a conversation in te reo
More than one in six Māori (35,148 people) aged under 15 could hold a conversation in te reo.

The age group of 65 years and over recorded the greatest percentage of Māori who could hold a conversation in te reo.

No, I wasn't suggesting that Maori shouldn't speak English to other if they are fluent in te reo. And the two people I was referring to looked like very gentle people who would be most unlikely to take offense at this posting!

Rikkitic

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#2009406 7-May-2018 17:23

People who are fully bilingual will sometimes switch back and forth when conversing. Sometimes a word or phrase will occur to a speaker first in the other language and that will prompt a switch. If the speakers are equally comfortable in both languages, they will just carry on until something prompts another switch.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

frednz

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#2010427 9-May-2018 08:53

Should the teaching of the Māori language be a compulsory core subject in state schools?

This NZ Herald article reported as follows:

"Educators have been quick to endorse a controversial Green Party proposal to make Māori language a compulsory core subject in state schools from years 1 to 10.

The two teacher unions, School Trustees Association and even the conservative Maxim Institute all backed the policy. Labour education spokesman Chris Hipkins said he personally also believed in it, although Labour would not endorse it formally."

And now Mike Hosking has weighed in to the controversy as follows:

"Greens co-Leader Marama Davidson has magically reappeared and taken credit for the aforementioned signing move. Her next step? Compulsory Māori language in schools. She is backed by Nanaia Mahuta who says it's a case of when, not if.

I hope she's wrong. Why would you make a language like Māori compulsory when nothing else is? Why would Māori be the only compulsory thing in schools?"

"Māori is not an international language, it is not a language of trade or business.
So their argument for compulsion is not about advancing the country's cause, it's about using their power and influence to hi-jack a system."

A bit too strong Mike, do you agree?

MikeAqua

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#2011627 9-May-2018 12:31

frednz:

Should the teaching of the Māori language be a compulsory core subject in state schools?

This NZ Herald article reported as follows:

"Educators have been quick to endorse a controversial Green Party proposal to make Māori language a compulsory core subject in state schools from years 1 to 10.

The two teacher unions, School Trustees Association and even the conservative Maxim Institute all backed the policy. Labour education spokesman Chris Hipkins said he personally also believed in it, although Labour would not endorse it formally."

And now Mike Hosking has weighed in to the controversy as follows:

"Greens co-Leader Marama Davidson has magically reappeared and taken credit for the aforementioned signing move. Her next step? Compulsory Māori language in schools. She is backed by Nanaia Mahuta who says it's a case of when, not if.

I hope she's wrong. Why would you make a language like Māori compulsory when nothing else is? Why would Māori be the only compulsory thing in schools?"

"Māori is not an international language, it is not a language of trade or business.
So their argument for compulsion is not about advancing the country's cause, it's about using their power and influence to hi-jack a system."

A bit too strong Mike, do you agree?

I back the policy too (eventually), but the teachers' unions are being disingenuous. They know (perhaps better than anyone) they don't have the numbers of Te Reo competent teachers to deliver it. It could take perhaps 5 or 10 years (or high upfront costs such as scholarships) to develop that capability.

On the TV today Mahuta was actually saying she eventually wants to see the capability to deliver all subjects taught in Te Reo at all levels. That's a hugely stretchy goal, which would allow full immersion Te Reo right through to Year 13.

BTW we had compulsory Te Reo across all years at my primary school - decile 2 in Rotorua. It didn't help with my Te Reo at all.

Mike

JimmyH

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#2015381 13-May-2018 21:44

If someone wants to learn Te Reo, for whatever reason be it cultural, professional or just for interest, then that's a good thing and they should do so. And, in school settings, it should be offered and supported. I have no issue with that, and am happy for my taxes (within reason) to be spent on it.

However, I think making it compulsory is a step too far. At risk of offending supporters, most NZers aren't Maori and for a great many of them they have only a passing interest in Te Reo, or in some cases no interest at all. Moreover, there is pretty much no where in this country where you can't get by with English, and there are only so many hours in a school day. They key question is that if someone is made to take Te Reo when they don't want to, then it will inevitably "crowd out" something else that they are interested in, and which would be more useful to them in later life. Much as I often dislike what Hosking says he is right here - it isn't an international language, it isn't the language of academia, it isn't the language of diplomacy and it isn't the language of business.

Personally, if I was at school and had to pick a language to study, it would likely be Mandarin, Spanish, French, Japanese, German or Russian. I can see all of these being of potential use in a later career. It wouln't be Latin, and it wouldn't be Te Reo. Moreover, if I was to learn a hobby language for solely cultural/interest reasons it would be Gaelic - the language most personally relevant to me given my cultural background and interests.

So I'm keen on it being offered and supported, but not so keen on it being compulsory.

Edit: Typo

MikeB4

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#2015491 14-May-2018 08:30

I believe all three of our official languages should be taught as part of the compulsory curriculum in our schools throughout Primary and Intermediate and optional at Secondary.

frednz

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#2015941 14-May-2018 17:10

JimmyH:

If someone wants to learn Te Reo, for whatever reason be it cultural, professional or just for interest, then that's a good thing and they should do so. And, in school settings, it should be offered and supported. I have no issue with that, and am happy for my taxes (within reason) to be spent on it.

However, I think making it compulsory is a step too far. At risk of offending supporters, most NZers aren't Maori and for a great many of them they have only a passing interest in Te Reo, or in some cases no interest at all. Moreover, there is pretty much no where in this country where you can't get by with English, and there are only so many hours in a school day. They key question is that if someone is made to take Te Reo when they don't want to, then it will inevitably "crowd out" something else that they are interested in, and which would be more useful to them in later life. Much as I often dislike what Hosking says he is right here - it isn't an international language, it isn't the language of academia, it isn't the language of diplomacy and it isn't the language of business.

Personally, if I was at school and had to pick a language to study, it would likely be Mandarin, Spanish, French, Japanese, German or Russian. I can see all of these being of potential use in a later career. It wouln't be Latin, and it wouldn't be Te Reo. Moreover, if I was to learn a hobby language for solely cultural/interest reasons it would be Gaelic - the language most personally relevant to me given my cultural background and interests.

So I'm keen on it being offered and supported, but not so keen on it being compulsory.

Edit: Typo

Yes, a good well-balanced post and I think students would be wise to at least consider studying Mandarin these days.

But if you do want to study te reo Māori (for free), here's a novel suggestion - register your interest along with 2,000 others at this Christchurch fish and chip eatery!

Restaurant co-owner Anton Matthews said the classes were designed for beginners and would be in an informal environment.

Now here's an interesting web page from New Zealand Immigration Concepts Ltd. It mentions that:

In the 1940's when Maori people moved out of rural areas and into the cities the Maori language began to decline and children were raised in English rather than Maori. By the 1970's, the Maori language was close to extinction and therefore an effort was made to include the native language into the media and school curriculums.

A recent survey by the New Zealand government shows about 130,000 people speak some Maori in New Zealand.

In early 2006, New Zealand became the first country to declare sign language as an official language.

Now that's a bit unusual, should New Zealand sign language be regarded as an official language of NZ?

I liked the section of the above site that includes some "NZ slang". For example, it's nice to know what "knackered" means in plain English!

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