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  #2033940 11-Jun-2018 20:55
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I withdrew from the Jacinda thread because I got fed up with all the toxic negativity about the government. I hope that doesn't infect every thread here. Some conservative commentators have a tactic to overwhelm those they disagree with by quoting reams of (sometimes doubtful) statistics, documents, opinion pieces, articles, anything and everything they can throw into the mix to create an avalanche of spurious noise to push aside all other opinion. Trying to verify all the quoted rubbish becomes too much. Some of it may be true, some may be exaggerated or flat out wrong, some may just be inflamed opinion disguised as objective fact, but sifting through it all is like trying to push the boulder of Sisyphus up the hill. That is the tactic. Win the argument with obfuscation and information overload.


Whether Obama's outcomes were terrible or not, or some were and others were not, is a matter of opinion. I certainly wish he had stuck to his red line. But he definitely had measurable outcomes or his popularity would not have remained so high. I am not confusing the two but I also am not going down that particular rabbit hole. Anyone capable of thinking that it is possible to have a 60% approval rating after 8 years with zero accomplishments is beyond the reach of rational discourse. You believe what you like. It isn't worth the effort of trying to persuade you otherwise.



I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney


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  #2033941 11-Jun-2018 20:56
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The opinion you get on Obama will be more or less partisan depending on the politics of the day.

No one has linked to anything balanced covering Obama's achievements and failures both.

Was Michael Moore being too harsh in 2014? Yeah I think so. Typical Michael Moore hyperbole for the most part. Seems actually pretty silly talking about something Michael Moore said in 2014 to some degree.


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  #2034125 12-Jun-2018 08:47
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I think most of the failings in terms of policy for Obama can be placed on the obstructionism in Congress. The healthcare reform was watered down and some of the most important parts had to be stripped out in order to get it passed. He tried time and time again to reach out and meet the republicans halfway. Only for them to step back and cry out about how he won't work with them. He should have realised much earlier in his presidency they would never work with him in a constructive way. Stopped trying to compromise with them and push ahead on doing what he saw as right. That is where he failed was he tried to build a consensus and failed to recognise that McConnell and Ryan weren't working in good faith.

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  #2034181 12-Jun-2018 09:47
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@Varkk - that was probably quite a big part of it.


What I personally take from observing recent history is that all of the "feel good" politicising (Relentless Positivity) and all of the "populist, polished oration" (Obama) doesn't magically impart "good" management, "effective" leadership, or "sound" decision-making.  Nor does it provide any meaningful insurance from the laws of unintended consequences.


All of which is why I prefer to cast my vote on the basis of demonstrated competency and a track record of good outcomes, rather than on personality or identity politics.


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  #2034298 12-Jun-2018 12:10
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USA is fpp and usually only 2.5 candidates for the presidency. Not much choice for voters usually.

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