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Pumpedd
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  #2043591 25-Jun-2018 15:13
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You guys arent really focusing on the main point. With Civil Servants now striking it is more than a coincidence that we are seeing more industrial action in 8 months under this Government than the last nine years. 

 

If legislation hasnt changed than I guess the Unions see this Government as soft touch. The offers imo have been more than generous considering inflation.

 

Mike is right in that the CTU has NO affiliation to the Labour Party, but the individual Unions sure do. To a certain extent the Unions have a large say in LAbour Party policy and appointment of senior Labour Party positions.

 

If the Government isnt careful we are going to see inflation take off as costs certainly have.


Fred99
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  #2043595 25-Jun-2018 15:26
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Wiggum:

 

Fred99:

 

Lias:

 

Might not be any formal links, but the CTU and Labour are about as linked as Sinn Fein and the IRA lol.

 

As for striking, you say legitimate part of the process, I say a legalised way of blackmailing employers. Striking should be illegal, as should collective agreements and probably unions in general. They exist to protect the deadwood and nothing else.

 

 

You're advocating authoritarian totalitarianism / abolition of rights for freedom of association.

 

We all know where that leads...

 

 

Workers already have the right to down tools, and find work elsewhere if they not happy. I have never understood the logic behind workers unions. If you not happy where you are, move along and be done with it. There is your freedom. nobody is forcing you to work.

 

Strikes work in the short term only, strikes = higher wages. But in the long term, corporations will simply move production from higher wage countries, to lower wage countries. Plenty of examples of that in Aus/NZ.

 

 

 

 

That wasn't my point.

 

Lias was advocating totalitarianism.  

 

As far as moving production to lower wage countries, lowering wages here to try to win a race to the bottom won't work for the benefit of NZ or NZers either.


 
 
 
 


Wiggum
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  #2043598 25-Jun-2018 15:38
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Fred99:

 

As far as moving production to lower wage countries, lowering wages here to try to win a race to the bottom won't work for the benefit of NZ or NZers either.

 

 

Nobody is advocating to lower wages here.


Geektastic
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  #2043605 25-Jun-2018 16:05
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MikeB4:

Lias:


Might not be any formal links, but the CTU and Labour are about as linked as Sinn Fein and the IRA lol.


As for striking, you say legitimate part of the process, I say a legalised way of blackmailing employers. Striking should be illegal, as should collective agreements and probably unions in general. They exist to protect the deadwood and nothing else.



 


Do you also believe that lockout is also blackmailing?



Lockout seems pointless. Just fire them and hire more compliant ones.





Geektastic
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  #2043609 25-Jun-2018 16:07
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"More than 4000 Inland Revenue Department and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment staff will go on strike next month."

Today's Herald.





Wiggum
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  #2043646 25-Jun-2018 16:19
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Geektastic: "More than 4000 Inland Revenue Department and Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment staff will go on strike next month."

Today's Herald.

 

Oh the nerve. I know so many people that are far worse off than them.


Rikkitic
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  #2043650 25-Jun-2018 16:22
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Geektastic:

Lockout seems pointless. Just fire them and hire more compliant ones.

 

That is exactly the reason there are laws governing this kind of thing.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


Rikkitic
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  #2043651 25-Jun-2018 16:23
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Wiggum:

 

Oh the nerve. I know so many people that are far worse off than them.

 

 

Maybe they should have gone on strike.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


gulfa
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  #2043653 25-Jun-2018 16:28
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Its alright to say if you don’t like your working conditions move on go and find another job. This is probably coming from someone who is very secure in their life style. In many cases these people cant afford to stop working changing jobs could mean a huge change for them moving houses Schools etc. If everyone took this attitude it would cause chaos in all areas.
If we set about with all political parties getting together and setting a living wage that people could survive on we possibly could get ride many of these situations. Many people don’t strike because they want to, in many cases they are struggling to survive. A job is a job no matter who does it they should be paid equally for that job whether they are 16 or 60. If I am employing someone to do a job for me I select them for their skills and attitude I don’t care about their sex or age. I have never been able to accept why we have a youth wage (or had)
Supposing
If all the workers decided to quit because they are not being paid enough what would businesses do they would most likely increase wages as has happened when companies want staff they rob from others to get the workers. If these same workers moved out of their rented accommodation and lost their accommodation assistance and we suddenly had all these spare rentals once again we would see a drop in rental prices. We see many cases regularly of workers being ripped off and in many of these cases they don’t have a union behind them to protect them. But of course there are groups of people who turn a blind eye to this.
Its fine to go on about unions but we have Unions or Similar types of groups who we do not identify as unions but in actual fact are Eg. Chamber Of Commerce, Federated Farmers Lawyers and Doctors etc. and probably they only reason they don’t threaten strike action is that they are well off.
We now have the nurses as well threatening strike action They should be paid a lot more for what they do. Teachers will be next. Don’t go on about hours they work. If these job are so easy as some of you think Go and try your hand out.
Education is the key to most of our problems a and the first thing we should be aiming at is reducing class sizes Many go on about the success of Charter Schools I would suggest most schools would have the same success rate with classes of 15 . But of course to set this up across the country would cost billions of dollars and in the long term would probably reduce crime, medical problems etc. We really don’t want that, we might have Lawyers and Court systems sitting on their hands.
Regardless of what we do it is the consumers who pay in the long run. Those who make millions of Dollars (CEO, Sports. Entertainers etc) rely on the consumers. Unless we do something to look after and share with each other we will always have these types of problems like strikes and demonstrations.
This present Govt is making some quite radical changes which many of you don’t agree with whether they are successful or not remains to be seen. I firmly believe after seeing some after the recent disasters by the previous group that a change was necessary and while I wish them well I am sure there will eyebrow raising times as there always has been over the many years by whoever has been in control
Perhaps one day we will see a political group grab the bull by the horns and make this investment in EDUCATION which would have huge benefits in the future.
My last plea is to keep out the stupid comments and name calling, challenging MPs intelligence, that many have made about the personalities of all political people, deal with the issues you will get more respect from all.

 

 


Lias
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  #2043667 25-Jun-2018 16:52
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MikeB4:

 

Do you also believe that lockout is also blackmailing?

 

 

No, I think it's piss weak and not nearly good enough that all they can do is lock them out. Threatening to strike should be grounds for instant dismissal. If workers don't like their jobs, they should look for better ones. If they are unable to get a better job, it's probably because they are the useless deadwood that others are carrying.





Lias
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  #2043672 25-Jun-2018 16:58
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Fred99:

 

You're advocating authoritarian totalitarianism / abolition of rights for freedom of association.

 

We all know where that leads...

 

 

Invoking Godwin's so soon lol? 

 

You say it's taking away rights, well unions take away an employers rights. Employers should be able to choose to ban unions from their workplace, and be able to fire the wastes of oxygen that exist in every unionised works, but are kept on because unionised environments make performance managing deadwood out the door a virtual impossibility. Collective agreements exist so that people who are good at their job get paid less, so that employers can afford to pay for the deadwood that can't be fired.





Fred99
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  #2043674 25-Jun-2018 17:07
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Lias:

 

Fred99:

 

You're advocating authoritarian totalitarianism / abolition of rights for freedom of association.

 

We all know where that leads...

 

 

Invoking Godwin's so soon lol? 

 

You say it's taking away rights, well unions take away an employers rights. Employers should be able to choose to ban unions from their workplace, and be able to fire the wastes of oxygen that exist in every unionised works, but are kept on because unionised environments make performance managing deadwood out the door a virtual impossibility. Collective agreements exist so that people who are good at their job get paid less, so that employers can afford to pay for the deadwood that can't be fired.

 

 

Calling out authoritarian totalitarianism is not invoking Godwin's.   If you think what I stated invoked Godwin's, then LOL to you.

 

 


MikeB4
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  #2043675 25-Jun-2018 17:08
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Lias:

 

MikeB4:

 

Do you also believe that lockout is also blackmailing?

 

 

No, I think it's piss weak and not nearly good enough that all they can do is lock them out. Threatening to strike should be grounds for instant dismissal. If workers don't like their jobs, they should look for better ones. If they are unable to get a better job, it's probably because they are the useless deadwood that others are carrying.

 

 

 

 

What a load of judgemental, supercilious drivel and poor attempt at trolling.


Rikkitic
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  #2043680 25-Jun-2018 17:18
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Lias:

 

You say it's taking away rights, well unions take away an employers rights. Employers should be able to choose to ban unions from their workplace, and be able to fire the wastes of oxygen that exist in every unionised works, but are kept on because unionised environments make performance managing deadwood out the door a virtual impossibility. Collective agreements exist so that people who are good at their job get paid less, so that employers can afford to pay for the deadwood that can't be fired.

 

 

It sounds to me like you have had some bad experiences with unions. That is unfortunate. Things go pear-shaped very quickly when either side gains too much power. When employers have enjoyed the kind of unrestrained authority you advocate, working people have suffered greatly. And it is not a matter of just finding another job.

 

At the same time, when unions have had things their way, they have also abused their power, to the detriment of all. There needs to be a balance between the two, for exactly the same reason that good governments should have separation of powers, and the police should not be allowed to police themselves. Human nature being what it is, there have to be checks and balances. Unions are a necessary part of this. 

 

 

 

  





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Handle9
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  #2043742 25-Jun-2018 19:09
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Lias:

 

Fred99:

 

You're advocating authoritarian totalitarianism / abolition of rights for freedom of association.

 

We all know where that leads...

 

 

Invoking Godwin's so soon lol? 

 

You say it's taking away rights, well unions take away an employers rights. Employers should be able to choose to ban unions from their workplace, and be able to fire the wastes of oxygen that exist in every unionised works, but are kept on because unionised environments make performance managing deadwood out the door a virtual impossibility. Collective agreements exist so that people who are good at their job get paid less, so that employers can afford to pay for the deadwood that can't be fired.

 

 

You keep raving on like your assertions are true, when they aren't. Collective agreements exist because certain occupations make them necessary. 

 

In the case of nurses and teachers they are largely employed by the government. This means that there is one employer and huge numbers of employees. Negotiating individual agreements isn't practical. 

 

In the case of a number of heavily unionised occupations it is because the individuals aren't capable of negotiating themselves and would be exploited if they tried.

 

Unions are certainly not perfect but it is very hard to argue that working class people generally have been better off since the unions were broken in the 1990s. You are far better off to be in Australia which is heavily unionised.


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