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GV27
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  #2051394 8-Jul-2018 12:15
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Seeing as I can't contribute to a thread or discussion or raise a question that follows on from how the Council dealt with this (which I entirely agree with, by the way, so I'm not actually sure why I'd be needing to deflect) without being accused of whataboutism, I will make no further comment here.


Fred99
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  #2051402 8-Jul-2018 12:20
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Geektastic:

 

I have seen enough reports worldwide to know that this is not restricted to the right hand side of the political spectrum. 

 

 

Nobody is saying it is - just rejecting "whataboutism" arguments that have been made in this thread which seemed to have had the intent of diminishing the loathsome actions of some hard-right scum.

 

 


 
 
 
 


Rikkitic

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  #2051406 8-Jul-2018 12:38
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Geektastic:

 

I have seen enough reports worldwide to know that this is not restricted to the right hand side of the political spectrum. 

 

 

Not even sure what left and right mean in this context but agree that thuggery is employed by all kinds of people spouting all kinds of justifications. In the particular case I was referring to, there is little question that the creatures doing the threatening identified as alt-right, since that is what the whole issue revolved around. Unless, of course, you are a conspiracy nut and think the left made the threats to discredit the right. But that is getting a little too abstract for me.

 

I agree with the principle that there are also plenty of disturbed types who profess to identify with left-wing ideas and threaten others with violence to get their way. I think of some of the 1080 protesters and extreme animal activists in particular. But I also believe that this kind of thing is a particular tactic favoured by the extreme right and I have no difficulty tying the two together. Fascism is not generally considered to be an ideology of the left.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Geektastic
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  #2051428 8-Jul-2018 13:02
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Rikkitic:

Geektastic:


I have seen enough reports worldwide to know that this is not restricted to the right hand side of the political spectrum. 



Not even sure what left and right mean in this context but agree that thuggery is employed by all kinds of people spouting all kinds of justifications. In the particular case I was referring to, there is little question that the creatures doing the threatening identified as alt-right, since that is what the whole issue revolved around. Unless, of course, you are a conspiracy nut and think the left made the threats to discredit the right. But that is getting a little too abstract for me.


I agree with the principle that there are also plenty of disturbed types who profess to identify with left-wing ideas and threaten others with violence to get their way. I think of some of the 1080 protesters and extreme animal activists in particular. But I also believe that this kind of thing is a particular tactic favoured by the extreme right and I have no difficulty tying the two together. Fascism is not generally considered to be an ideology of the left.


 



I'm not sure this is actually fascism in the proper meaning of that term.

In the lazy, modern perjorative use, possibly.





Fred99
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  #2051429 8-Jul-2018 13:03
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It's kind of off-topic, but should 1080 protestors and "animal rights" activists be considered "left wing"?  They're single-issue protestors. 


Rikkitic

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  #2051460 8-Jul-2018 13:41
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I don't but the media seem to put them in that box, presumably because they claim justification due to serving a higher moral purpose.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Rikkitic

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  #2051472 8-Jul-2018 13:46
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Geektastic:

 

I'm not sure this is actually fascism in the proper meaning of that term.

In the lazy, modern perjorative use, possibly.

 

I use Fascism in the broadest sense of the term: evil, authoritarian, self-righteous, violent a$$holes who think they have a divine right to rule the world and believe the end justifies any means.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


freitasm
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  #2051475 8-Jul-2018 13:55
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GV27:

 

Seeing as I can't contribute to a thread or discussion or raise a question that follows on from how the Council dealt with this (which I entirely agree with, by the way, so I'm not actually sure why I'd be needing to deflect) without being accused of whataboutism, I will make no further comment here.

 

 

It's whataboutism when you bring a completely unrelated topic into it and try to make it the centre of the discussion. It's not.





 

 

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UHD

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  #2051510 8-Jul-2018 14:41
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Rikkitic:

 

Fascism is not generally considered to be an ideology of the left.

 

 

Actually, the term has no position on the political spectrum. It is a synonym for the word bully. Those oppressed under Mussolini, Hitler, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Mao, and Stalin were all oppressed under fascist regimes despite the governments all having different political positions.


Fred99
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  #2051514 8-Jul-2018 15:03
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I quite like Roosevelt's statement:

 

The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself.  That, in its essence, is fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. 

 

Sends a bit of a shiver down my spine that does. 


Rikkitic

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  #2051516 8-Jul-2018 15:05
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Not according to Wikipedia: "fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum"

 

Of course there are other definitions.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Geektastic
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  #2051589 8-Jul-2018 17:09
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"Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties.[12] Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society"

The modern use is not really correct.





Rikkitic

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  #2051596 8-Jul-2018 17:17
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Words evolve. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Fred99
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  #2051607 8-Jul-2018 17:47
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Yes - words evolve and in any case there's not really an agreed definition - there's a page full of assorted expert definitions here.

 

Then there's neo-fascism - perhaps more appropriate to describe the pair (and their supporters) denied access to Council facilities in Auckland.

 

At risk of being accused of being sexist - given that the neo-fascist evolution seems to be targeting young angry white male recruits, using a young superficially attractive and somewhat articulate white blonde barbie clone to spread the message is something for which the devil himself would be proud.


JimmyH
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  #2051668 8-Jul-2018 19:56
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I don't like "alt-right" as it's more of a perjorative that's tossed freely around to discredit people than a meaningful description.

 

In any event neither the left nor the right, insofar as such labels still have meaning, has a monopoly on this type of despicable behavior. Bully-boy tactics, ranging from using physical intimidation and mob-violence disruption all the way through to death threats and actual killing, are regrettably standard techniques for political extremists. They have been since Og disagreed with Thrag about who should lead the tribe in the mammoth hunt, were documented feature of organised politics since well before Roman times, and are still with us today. Neither the left, the old right or the "alt-right" invented them.

 

If they find who made the death threats then they should suffer suitable judicial consequences. It is imbecilic, criminal and inexcusable behaviour.

 

Having said that, I am also appalled that Goff and Davidson have sided with people threatening violence and intimidation, rather than backing free speech. The correct response is to support free speech (even if you loathe the speaker and what they are saying) and then rebut them. In a liberal democracy, I would have hoped that politicians of all hues would have agreed on the importance of protecting free speech, and particularly political speech.


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