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  Reply # 2055030 12-Jul-2018 14:22
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Geektastic:
Varkk:

 

The dispute isn't strictly about pay. The nurses are concerned about staffing levels and the structure of the health system. Which isn't really addressed in the offer they received.

 



Neither is their responsibility.

 

So if you're overworked in a systemically underfunded hospital, it's not your responsibility to do anything, and anyway it's a free-market, so you can always change towns or whatever, and go and be overworked in another systemically underfunded hospital.  Or find a cushy job in a well-funded private clinic doing facelifts and tummy-tucks.


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  Reply # 2055573 13-Jul-2018 09:30
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Geektastic:
Varkk:

 

The dispute isn't strictly about pay. The nurses are concerned about staffing levels and the structure of the health system. Which isn't really addressed in the offer they received.

 



Neither is their responsibility.

 

 

 

If it is leading to unsafe working conditions then it absolutely is. What are the nurses meant to do about understaffing? Suck it up and drag on? Or use their power through contract negotiations to get material improvements in their working conditions?


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  Reply # 2055592 13-Jul-2018 09:47
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Varkk:

 

Geektastic:
Varkk:

 

The dispute isn't strictly about pay. The nurses are concerned about staffing levels and the structure of the health system. Which isn't really addressed in the offer they received.

 



Neither is their responsibility.

 

 

 

If it is leading to unsafe working conditions then it absolutely is. What are the nurses meant to do about understaffing? Suck it up and drag on? Or use their power through contract negotiations to get material improvements in their working conditions?

 

 

 

 

Suck it up like the rest of us have to.

 

 

 

By all means draw Management attention to issues. It is management's responsibility to deal with it, not the nurses.






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  Reply # 2055593 13-Jul-2018 09:49
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Fred99:

 

Geektastic:
Varkk:

 

The dispute isn't strictly about pay. The nurses are concerned about staffing levels and the structure of the health system. Which isn't really addressed in the offer they received.

 



Neither is their responsibility.

 

So if you're overworked in a systemically underfunded hospital, it's not your responsibility to do anything, and anyway it's a free-market, so you can always change towns or whatever, and go and be overworked in another systemically underfunded hospital.  Or find a cushy job in a well-funded private clinic doing facelifts and tummy-tucks.

 

 

 

 

No, it isn't your responsibility. It is management's responsibility.

 

 

 

If you do not like how it impacts your life, get another job or get elected and change it. Don't just inconvenience the patients and tax payers to resolve your personal employment concerns.






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  Reply # 2055651 13-Jul-2018 10:51
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Geektastic:

 

No, it isn't your responsibility. It is management's responsibility.

 

 

NZ Nursing Code of Conduct and Code of Ethics would strongly disagree.  I could list the clauses which show very clearly that it is a Nurse's responsibility and they're obliged to take direct action / intervene to prevent unsafe practises from happening as a result of whatever...

 

But nevermind - that just gets in the way of them being the obedient subservient drones all workers should be...  

 

..in the 19th century.


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  Reply # 2055663 13-Jul-2018 11:11
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Interesting to see the Health Minister left the country for the strike.....

 

Transporting his family to an overseas holiday IS NOT A HOLIDAY...he says...

 

Time to replace this incompetent. 


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Reply # 2055759 13-Jul-2018 13:53
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Geektastic:

 

No, it isn't your responsibility. It is management's responsibility.

 

If you do not like how it impacts your life, get another job or get elected and change it. Don't just inconvenience the patients and tax payers to resolve your personal employment concerns.

 

 

Geektastic, would you like to have a look at a clock nearby and note that we are presently in the 21st century and no longer in Victorian times? Workers are not slaves. 

 

1. Workers are legally entitled to strike. This is a right enshrined under the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), to which NZ is a signatory. This right is enshrined under domestic legislation as well.

 

2. It is absolutely not merely management's responsibility to ensure that a workplace is safe. Again, you can thank the law that applies to you (you're not more special than anyone else) for this.  Under the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015 (HSWA), although a PCBU (Persons Conducting a Business or Undertaking) owes the primary duty of care for workplace safety, workers also have the obligation to take reasonable care for their own health and safety, which will include raising issues around unsafe staffing levels with management. There are also provisions for worker health and safety representatives for workplaces of certain sizes and under the collective bargaining agreements between the various unions and the DHBs, workers are entitled to be consulted and heard on health and safety-related matters.

 

You're entitled to your own views (however much those should arouse feelings of disgust amongst any thinking person -- at least one would hope so). What you are not entitled to do is vehemently assert your legislation, reality, and moral principles-disregarding views as facts.


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  Reply # 2055765 13-Jul-2018 14:07
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Geektastic's worldview also disregards the fact that worker fatigue is a well-known danger to patients and workers in the healthcare context. As evidenced by this Worksafe guide, PCBUs and workers both have duties to manage fatigue. And unlike Victorian England, no one has to just suck it up or find another job. If the demands upon the nurses are unsafe and unreasonable, they are perfectly entitled to complain and so they should, notwithstanding one person's  worldview that the world is apparently some dystopian Hobbesian State of Nature where everyone should just fend for themselves (for the ill-informed: Hobbes postulated that the State of Nature is, to keep things simple, this awful state of affairs that we don't want and hence why we should have some rules. It's not what people should actually want/celebrate a free-for-all).

 

People are actually of flesh and blood and actually have physical and emotional needs. Your disdain for your fellow humans is frequently articulated on here but unless you are some really rich guy and has lots of powerful friends, it's hard to seriously believe that you will genuinely want a world that plays by the rules that you espouse. Because, trust me, in all probability such a world will eat you alive, as it will for most people.

 

 

 

Edit: typos and clarity.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2055778 13-Jul-2018 14:24
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Fred99:

Geektastic:


No, it isn't your responsibility. It is management's responsibility.



NZ Nursing Code of Conduct and Code of Ethics would strongly disagree.  I could list the clauses which show very clearly that it is a Nurse's responsibility and they're obliged to take direct action / intervene to prevent unsafe practises from happening as a result of whatever...


But nevermind - that just gets in the way of them being the obedient subservient drones all workers should be...  


..in the 19th century.



Their code is nothing to do with paying for and running the nation's health system. It's a nice little set of guidelines dreamed up at an away day with no great application other than internally amongst themselves.





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  Reply # 2055784 13-Jul-2018 14:29
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Stop spewing rubbish again. Breaching the Code would make a nurse liable to investigation by the Health and Disability Commissioner and to potential referral to the disciplinary tribunal by the Director of Proceedings. The Code actually has legal status.

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  Reply # 2055785 13-Jul-2018 14:29
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dejadeadnz:

Geektastic:


No, it isn't your responsibility. It is management's responsibility.


If you do not like how it impacts your life, get another job or get elected and change it. Don't just inconvenience the patients and tax payers to resolve your personal employment concerns.



Geektastic, would you like to have a look at a clock nearby and note that we are presently in the 21st century and no longer in Victorian times? Workers are not slaves. 


1. Workers are legally entitled to strike. This is a right enshrined under the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), to which NZ is a signatory. This right is enshrined under domestic legislation as well.


2. It is absolutely not merely management's responsibility to ensure that a workplace is safe. Again, you can thank the law that applies to you (you're not more special than anyone else) for this.  Under the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015 (HSWA), although a PCBU (Persons Conducting a Business or Undertaking) owes the primary duty of care for workplace safety, workers also have the obligation to take reasonable care for their own health and safety, which will include raising issues around unsafe staffing levels with management. There are also provisions for worker health and safety representatives for workplaces of certain sizes and under the collective bargaining agreements between the various unions and the DHBs, workers are entitled to be consulted and heard on health and safety-related matters.


You're entitled to your own views (however much those should arouse feelings of disgust amongst any thinking person -- at least one would hope so). What you are not entitled to do is vehemently assert your legislation, reality, and moral principles-disregarding views as facts.



They are free to resign any time if their employer refuses to change things to something they find more suitable.

They are not free (or should not be) to inconvenience the people who pay their salaries as part of a spat with their employer, regardless of what century it is.

Striking is wrong generally and morally wrong in this instance in particular.





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  Reply # 2055786 13-Jul-2018 14:31
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So Geektastic is now reduced to just spam bombing the thread with the same arguments that have zero basis in reality, I.e. trolling. Wonderful.

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  Reply # 2055788 13-Jul-2018 14:33
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dejadeadnz: Stop spewing rubbish again. Breaching the Code would make a nurse liable to investigation by the Health and Disability Commissioner and to potential referral to the disciplinary tribunal by the Director of Proceedings. The Code actually has legal status.


The decisions to run hospitals are not made by nurses or their code of ethics.

If the requirements being made of them genuinely beach something which they consider more important, then surely none of them should ever be at work? Indeed, none of them should have signed employment contracts.

This is about money, anything else is just a smoke screen.





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  Reply # 2055790 13-Jul-2018 14:37
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dejadeadnz: So Geektastic is now reduced to just spam bombing the thread with the same arguments that have zero basis in reality, I.e. trolling. Wonderful.


I'm expressing my view. I disagree with strike action of all kinds. I'm entitled to that view and disagreeing with you, and with any law relating to that, is not trolling.

You assume that just because the law says X, it must be correct. Laws are often not correct and can be altered. If no one ever disagreed, they'd never get altered.





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  Reply # 2055794 13-Jul-2018 14:39
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Geektastic, it may surprise you that some of us can read. This is what you wrote.

 

 It's a nice little set of guidelines dreamed up at an away day with no great application other than internally amongst themselves.

 

Regardless of what qualifier you give and what context in which this argument was made, it is wrong. You're out of your depth on this. Quit whilst you're "only" few thousand laps behind.

 

 

 

 


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