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Topic # 238298 11-Jul-2018 09:23
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It may not be quite "politics", but this is probably the most appropriate forum for discussion if this story that broke this week.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/weddings/105324741/lesbian-couple-shocked-by-kiwi-baker-who-refused-to-make-wedding-cake

 

It looks to be similar to the recent case that went to the Supreme Court in the US.

 

 

 

On the surface, it seems that NZ's Bill of Rights Act may result in an inherent contradiction when it provides for both the freedom to practice religion and the right to not be discriminated against on the basis of sexuality.

 

What are your thoughts?


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BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 2053135 11-Jul-2018 09:30
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The couple should just go and find a less bigoted business to make their cake. I'm sure there'll be plenty others that will take their money. That'd be the end of story. Why extend it? If someone doesn't want to do business with you because of what they think, so be it.





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  Reply # 2054128 11-Jul-2018 09:51
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Agree with the above. Why give your money to someone who is a jerk?

 

 





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  Reply # 2054129 11-Jul-2018 09:55
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Tempest in a coffee mug. Go down the road I am sure a sensible business person will take the many with a smile.





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  Reply # 2054134 11-Jul-2018 10:00
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Technically, a wedding cake cannot be gay...






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  Reply # 2054149 11-Jul-2018 10:04
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Geektastic:

 

Technically, a wedding cake cannot be gay...

 

 

Do you mean The Wedding Cake can't be gay? Yes, never thought of gender and sexuality issues in the cake world.





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  Reply # 2054165 11-Jul-2018 10:21
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freitasm:

 

Geektastic:

 

Technically, a wedding cake cannot be gay...

 

 

Do you mean The Wedding Cake can't be gay? Yes, never thought of gender and sexuality issues in the cake world.

 

 

I guess the 2 guys on the top of the cake makes it a gay cake.

 

I didnt think anyone cared these days as sexual preference.


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  Reply # 2054167 11-Jul-2018 10:22
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freitasm:

 

The couple should just go and find a less bigoted business to make their cake. I'm sure there'll be plenty others that will take their money. That'd be the end of story. Why extend it? If someone doesn't want to do business with you because of what they think, so be it.

 

 

At some point though, it does become relevant.  If it's the only gas station in town, the only doctor etc...

 

This is an example of bigots trolling.  There is an issue and the solution won't always be so simple as "just go to another cake maker".

 

 




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  Reply # 2054169 11-Jul-2018 10:29
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freitasm:

 

The couple should just go and find a less bigoted business to make their cake. I'm sure there'll be plenty others that will take their money. That'd be the end of story. Why extend it? If someone doesn't want to do business with you because of what they think, so be it.

 

 

Well, yes.  I think that most people would agree that that would be the most sensible course of action.

 

However, in this case the couple concerned have made a conscious choice to turn an entirely private (and earnestly polite) matter and taken it to the media for widespread coverage and consideration.  On one hand, it would be interesting to explore what may have motivated them to do so?

 

Another angle to the story is the application of discrimination law in New Zealand, with at least one lawyer suggesting that the baker has broken the law by refusing to serve this couple.

 

"Section 44 expressly states that it will be unlawful to 'refuse or fail on demand to provide any other person' with goods, facilities, or services by reason of any of the prohibited grounds of discrimination," Chen said.

 

This raises the more challenging issue of "compulsion".

 

Should the baker be compelled by the state to perform a service that contravenes her religious beliefs?

 

 


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  Reply # 2054176 11-Jul-2018 10:43
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Pumpedd:

 

freitasm:

 

Geektastic:

 

Technically, a wedding cake cannot be gay...

 

 

Do you mean The Wedding Cake can't be gay? Yes, never thought of gender and sexuality issues in the cake world.

 

 

I guess the 2 guys on the top of the cake makes it a gay cake.

 

I didnt think anyone cared these days as sexual preference.

 

 

 

 

Cakes do not have a sexual orientation. They cannot be gay or straight.

 

So "gay wedding cake" is not a correct expression.

 

"Cake for a gay wedding" would be correct. "Gay couple's wedding cake" would be correct.






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  Reply # 2054180 11-Jul-2018 10:47
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6FIEND:

 

"Section 44 expressly states that it will be unlawful to 'refuse or fail on demand to provide any other person' with goods, facilities, or services by reason of any of the prohibited grounds of discrimination," Chen said.

 

 

This raises the more challenging issue of "compulsion".

 

Should the baker be compelled by the state to perform a service that contravenes her religious beliefs?

 

 

Good points.

 

This is very different from someone walking into a Halal eatery and complaining they won't make her a bacon cheeseburger. For a start the workers on said eatery would not touch the ingredient for this meal because of their belief. In this case is not that they aren't providing the product because of what the customer believe, but because they are compelled to not do it in first place for their own sake.

 

In the cake case the religion doesn't prohibit someone from making a cake or touching the ingredients. The person doesn't want to do it because of discrimination.





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  Reply # 2054181 11-Jul-2018 10:50
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"gay wedding"+"cake" = cake for gay wedding, thus "gay wedding cake". The cake isn't gay, but the wedding is.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 2054185 11-Jul-2018 10:56
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Geektastic:

 

Cakes do not have a sexual orientation. They cannot be gay or straight.

 

 

They do in some countries, le gâteau and der kuchen.

 

Wedding cake is feminine in Germany, masculine in France - hetero marriage seems possible.




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  Reply # 2054191 11-Jul-2018 11:15
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freitasm:

 

In the cake case the religion doesn't prohibit someone from making a cake or touching the ingredients. The person doesn't want to do it because of discrimination.

 

 

Also a good point.

 

But if we take the Halal eatery example and change it slightly so that it's not about "handling prohibited foods"...

 

Perhaps consider a printing company owned and operated by a devout Muslim.  Should we compel that person to print copies of the notorious "Allah is Gay" pamphlets?

 

If not, would we compel a devout Christian printer to print an equivalent "God is gay" pamphlet?

 

Apologies - we're well on our way down a rabbit hole now...


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  Reply # 2054192 11-Jul-2018 11:20
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I think that the baker should be compelled to make that cake. As how is discrimination based on sexual orientation any different to discrimination based on skin colour?

As for the Halal eatery example, they are highly unlikely to have any bacon on site. So that alone would mean that they can't make a bacon cheeseburger. Even if a staff member would have been happy to prepare one. And they won't be advertising that they do make bacon cheeseburgers.

While a bakery that says that it does bake wedding cakes, refusing to bake a wedding cake, when there is nothing physically preventing them from baking a wedding cake. Solely because the customer is gay. Is discrimination. And I don't regard religion as a valid excuse.

There are plenty of religious practices which were considered perfectly fine a century or so ago. But which are considered illegal now. There are countries out there where being gay is illegal. My suggestion to that baker is that he move to one of those countries.

As for that couple making a fuss, if you don't call out something that is not right. Nothing will change. Ironically the right for gay people to marry was itself something that people had to protest and campaign for.





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  Reply # 2054201 11-Jul-2018 11:42
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6FIEND:

 

freitasm:

 

In the cake case the religion doesn't prohibit someone from making a cake or touching the ingredients. The person doesn't want to do it because of discrimination.

 

 

Also a good point.

 

But if we take the Halal eatery example and change it slightly so that it's not about "handling prohibited foods"...

 

Perhaps consider a printing company owned and operated by a devout Muslim.  Should we compel that person to print copies of the notorious "Allah is Gay" pamphlets?

 

If not, would we compel a devout Christian printer to print an equivalent "God is gay" pamphlet?

 

Apologies - we're well on our way down a rabbit hole now...

 

 

Those examples are not comparable.

 

A printer should be allowed to refuse to print anything they find offensive - but not to refuse to serve a customer because of what they are.

 

Any baker who didn't want to make a cake decorated with (legal) pornography should have the right to refuse.


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