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  Reply # 2069292 7-Aug-2018 14:03
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Fred99:

 

Go back and read your posts in this thread (as I just did).

 

Many of your comments seem to suggest that there's a "both sides" to a legitimate debate, that "both sides" use the same techniques to discredit each other's position, or that people get "personal" when confronted by a fascist.

 

If being "emotive" is to reject fascism without feeling any need for discussion of its "virtues" - then yeah - I'm guilty as charged.

 

 

I don't attempt to classify debate into legitimate and not.  There is unequivocally a debate.  My view is that weak arguments can/will be shot down. So let them be heard and let the firing commence.

 

My values on this matter probably aren't very different to yours - I dislike racism, fascism, sexism ect .  I'm just not bothered by people with a different value set being able to speak.

 

I don't see the value of attacking even fascists personally.  You won't convince them to change that way.  By attacking someone personally, you entrench them and their supporters.  You may even win them more supporters. 

 

I'm happy to attack views and arguments but personal attacks seem pointless.   It may make me feel good momentarily.  But ... by attacking anyone in that way, I breach my own value set winning then?

 

I don't think it's emotional to reject fascism etc.  It's easy to construct an argument that it's eventually harmful to all involved.

 

It does seem emotional to engage in personal attacks - even on people whose views you despise.

 

 





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  Reply # 2069295 7-Aug-2018 14:06
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Rikkitic:

 

So what is the argument? Like you, I based my opinion on credible reports of what they were saying and doing. Like you, it didn't take me long to decide I had seen enough. If someone can't see what these people are really like, I doubt anything I can say will change their mind. 

 

 

I looked at their own words, not indirect reports. Different people learn in different ways.  What works for me/you may not work for others.

 

Some people may need to go to hear them and see who else is there to get it.

 

 





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  Reply # 2069297 7-Aug-2018 14:12
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Oh dear:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106068816/massey-university-bans-don-brash-from-speaking

 

He was invited to speak to a students' politics club, but vice-chancellor Jan Thomas stopped the event after club members alerted the university to their concerns about ensuring security and public safety.

 

Highlighted because I suspect this is all probably a set-up by Don to "prove a point".  IOW - a publicity stunt.

 

With Molyneux and Southern IMO they should have been denied the required class of working visa based on (poor) character grounds - because they're scum.  Once granted for that purpose, then they shouldn't have been prevented from speaking by government interference.

 

Would Don have potential to cause a riot? (I doubt it - he's now an irrelevant relic of times gone by, and not close to being a fascist IMO)

 

 


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  Reply # 2069299 7-Aug-2018 14:14
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freitasm:

 

Conservatism favours free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas. It does not spouse authoritarianism (including its extreme form, fascism).

 

 

Unfortunately, I think people are increasingly confusing conservatism with fascism, racism etc and even starting to associate those things with light-conservative political positions (e.g. National). 

 

I get the impression from what I see that 'the left' are quietly happy to see that happen, maybe even stoke it along a little.





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  Reply # 2069310 7-Aug-2018 14:21
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MikeAqua:

 

freitasm:

 

Conservatism favours free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas. It does not spouse authoritarianism (including its extreme form, fascism).

 

 

Unfortunately, I think people are increasingly confusing conservatism with fascism, racism etc and even starting to associate those things with light-conservative political positions (e.g. National). 

 

I get the impression from what I see that 'the left' are quietly happy to see that happen, maybe even stoke it along a little.

 

 

There's probably an extremely good reason for that (not an excuse - a reason).

 

Fascism, anti-liberalism, and ethno-nationalism are on the rise, they're a serious threat to global peace and freedom.

 

Conservatives with a classical liberal leaning seem slow to pick up on the fact that despite a mutual desire to counter socialism, they should have nothing else at all in common - and conservatives should be a strong voice in denouncing the likes of the alt-right movement (or whatever other label they want to pin on themselves).


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  Reply # 2069328 7-Aug-2018 14:26
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

freitasm:

 

Conservatism favours free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas. It does not spouse authoritarianism (including its extreme form, fascism).

 

 

Unfortunately, I think people are increasingly confusing conservatism with fascism, racism etc and even starting to associate those things with light-conservative political positions (e.g. National). 

 

I get the impression from what I see that 'the left' are quietly happy to see that happen, maybe even stoke it along a little.

 

 

There's probably an extremely good reason for that (not an excuse - a reason).

 

Fascism, anti-liberalism, and ethno-nationalism are on the rise, they're a serious threat to global peace and freedom.

 

Conservatives with a classical liberal leaning seem slow to pick up on the fact that despite a mutual desire to counter socialism, they should have nothing else at all in common - and conservatives should be a strong voice in denouncing the likes of the alt-right movement (or whatever other label they want to pin on themselves).

 

 

 

 

To be honest I am starting to stay away from the news and spending less time in this section of GZ because this whole thing scares the pants off me and causes stress my condition does not need. My family knows all too well what the rise of these ism's mean and it scares them as well.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2069346 7-Aug-2018 14:40
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MikeAqua:

 

Unfortunately, I think people are increasingly confusing conservatism with fascism, racism etc and even starting to associate those things with light-conservative political positions (e.g. National). 

 

I get the impression from what I see that 'the left' are quietly happy to see that happen, maybe even stoke it along a little.

 

 

Not quite sure who you think 'the left' are. I can only speak for myself, but I make a very clear distinction between conservatism and fascism. I have no problem with the former, no tolerance for the latter.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2069420 7-Aug-2018 16:42
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Rikkitic:

 

Not quite sure who you think 'the left' are.

 

 

Good point ... to clarify I was thinking of left politicians, activists and commentators. 

 

It's my perception that people in these group have a track record of attack others - quick fire examples off the top of my head Harawira ("white mofos"), Cullen ("rich prick"), Marvelly ("men are stupid", "kill men" [tweet quickly taken down]).  In Trevor Mallards case - physically attacking someone in parliament.

 

For left politicians etc calling there opponents whatever-ist (on tenuous grounds or none at all) is just another flavour of ad-hominen attack.

 

It's part of the lefty play-book in NZ to personally attack your opponents and always has been.

 

On the wider expanse of the internet of course there are trolls all over, all possible spectra of opinion and subjects.





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  Reply # 2069421 7-Aug-2018 16:46
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MikeAqua:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Not quite sure who you think 'the left' are.

 

 

Good point ... to clarify I was thinking of left politicians, activists and commentators. 

 

It's my perception that people in these group have a track record of attack others - quick fire examples off the top of my head Harawira ("white mofos"), Cullen ("rich prick"), Marvelly ("men are stupid", "kill men" [tweet quickly taken down]).  In Trevor Mallards case - physically attacking someone in parliament.

 

For left politicians etc calling there opponents whatever-ist (on tenuous grounds or none at all) is just another flavour of ad-hominen attack.

 

It's part of the lefty play-book in NZ to personally attack your opponents and always has been.

 

On the wider expanse of the internet of course there are trolls all over, all possible spectra of opinion and subjects.

 

 

And the right does the same. 

 

On other news, to no one's surprise I have been branded "leftist" and people complained to me that "leftists have invaded Geekzone" when I kicked some users out of the Politics sub-forum for abuse and trolling.





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  Reply # 2069425 7-Aug-2018 16:55
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I am neither left or right which probably means I don't know if I am coming or going, already been or never got there. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2069426 7-Aug-2018 16:56
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MikeB4:

 

To be honest I am starting to stay away from the news and spending less time in this section of GZ because this whole thing scares the pants off me and causes stress my condition does not need. My family knows all too well what the rise of these ism's mean and it scares them as well.

 

 

I'm the opposite. Cries of whatever-ism are so frequent, it's all a bit cry wolf to me.

 

Who hasn't experienced racism in NZ?  In my case I'm glad it was all in the form of racially motivated violence - bruises heal and I learned a skill set.

 

Rather that than economic deprivation, which many groups experience and has life-long impacts

 

 





Mike

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  Reply # 2069437 7-Aug-2018 17:27
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freitasm:

 

And the right does the same. 

 

On other news, to no one's surprise I have been branded "leftist" and people complained to me that "leftists have invaded Geekzone" when I kicked some users out of the Politics sub-forum for abuse and trolling.

 

 

How terrible to be a leftist. How terrible to have leftists invade. How terrible, all those progressive ideas about fair play and equal opportunity and human dignity. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2069439 7-Aug-2018 17:36
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Rikkitic:

 

freitasm:

 

And the right does the same. 

 

On other news, to no one's surprise I have been branded "leftist" and people complained to me that "leftists have invaded Geekzone" when I kicked some users out of the Politics sub-forum for abuse and trolling.

 

 

How terrible to be a leftist. How terrible to have leftists invade. How terrible, all those progressive ideas about fair play and equal opportunity and human dignity. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

 

 

 

 

When folks are referring to the left or saying someone is left it is so often worded in a way that it is a bad thing to be left.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2069440 7-Aug-2018 17:42
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MikeAqua:

 

It's part of the lefty play-book in NZ to personally attack your opponents and always has been.

 

 

You've confirmed my suspicions that you're not really interested in debate, but in finding opportunities to espouse your own anti-left views, even resorting to cherry-picking examples of extreme behaviour which is not the norm - in a lame attempt to prove a point.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2069441 7-Aug-2018 17:42
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For what it's worth, I think the decision to muzzle Don Brash is a mistake. I do think he is a racist and I don't agree with his ideas but I don't think he should be prevented from speaking. Fascist Canadian troublemakers should have no right of 'free speech' in this country, but great care must be taken before denying this important right to our own citizens. It should only happen in exceptional circumstances and I don't think Brash meets that test.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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