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  Reply # 2070093 8-Aug-2018 15:47
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Rikkitic:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

I'm just glad we have the freedom to get up on a soap box and call Trump an idiot, even if someone else finds that opinion offensive. I would hate to think someone in a position of power would attempt to prevent this airing of one's belief on some pretext, such as it might make someone else stage a protest. 

 

 

 

 

What you and others just don't seem to get is that it isn't an all or nothing thing. It isn't something easily identifiable, like someone saying something that can get them banned or jailed. It is a gradual, insidious process, a subtle chipping away, an ongoing bending of norms, a continuous seductive whisper to persuade people that it is no big deal. Hitler did not march in and take over. He did it in stages, a little at a time, nothing too outrageous in itself, nothing to set off any alarms except in a few people who could see what was coming.

 

The issue is not if the Canadians or anyone else says or does anything illegal. The issue is the constant drip drip of poisonous thoughts that eat away at behavioural norms, that make things acceptable that were once thought outrageous. This is what is happening right now in America. It is what happened in nazi Germany. It is what could happen here or anywhere else that people fall for fake 'free speech' arguments. 

 

People who think this is no big deal should talk to the frog in the slowly boiling pan of water. By the time you know you are in trouble, it is already too late. Read that link. If you can't understand what it is saying, then you are already lost.

 

And no, this has nothing to do with Brash being denied the right to speak. That was just a stupid call by a silly person. There are a lot of those around.

 

 

I never suggested it is an "all or nothing thing" and I even mentioned cases where the law allows for a definition of hate speech and deals with it. Please don't misrepresent what I said like that.

 

What I did say is that there's a legal bar and I have yet to see this stated in the case of Goff's actions. The fact that someone else might stage a rowdy protest is not the bar.

 

And further, the bar is not set by someone's opinion. It is set by law and evaluated in a court. Not the mayor's office.

 

Now what do you suggest we do about this "dripping poison"? I can answer that... it's education and presenting a counter view. You can't suppress it without bringing in an authoritarian control that is much more sinister. The first thing Hitler did was control media and freedom of expression. 

 

 


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  Reply # 2070094 8-Aug-2018 15:47
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MikeB4:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

MikeB4:

 

MikeAqua:

 

MikeB4:

 

His timing in my opinion is dubious . 

 

 

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

 

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

 

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

 

 

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

 

 

It wasn't Jan Thomas that invited him. It was a student organisation so... no, not on the apparently spurious justification she used. 

 

It really surprises me that people here think it's OK for Jan Thomas to arbitrarily cancel Brash's speaking engagement for the reasons cited. It's a university! They are supposed to deal with differing views, not prevent them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The student body does not run the University.

 

 

Correct. Your point being?

 

 


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  Reply # 2070100 8-Aug-2018 15:52
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Just chiming back in to point out the below that Jan Thomas was quoted as saying:

 

Mr Brash's leadership of Hobson's Pledge and views he and its supporters espoused in relation to Māori wards on councils was clearly of concern to many staff, particularly Māori staff...

 

In my opinion, the views expressed by members of Hobson's Pledge come dangerously close to hate speech.

 

Sounds to me like her own political views (and some of her staff) played at least some part in her decision.


Glurp
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  Reply # 2070103 8-Aug-2018 15:55
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kryptonjohn:

 

Now what do you suggest we do about this "dripping poison"? I can answer that... it's education and presenting a counter view. You can't suppress it without bringing in an authoritarian control that is much more sinister. The first thing Hitler did was control media and freedom of expression. 

 

 

 

 

I'm doing my best to present a counter view but it feels like pushing an avalanche uphill.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2070111 8-Aug-2018 16:02
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Fred99:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

MikeB4:

 

MikeAqua:

 

MikeB4:

 

His timing in my opinion is dubious . 

 

 

According to Brash (on AM show today) he was invited to speak at this Massey thing months ago.

 

You can link to the speech notes here https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12102874

 

Actually an interesting read and underscores the man's depth and span of experience.

 

 

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

 

 

It wasn't Jan Thomas that invited him. It was a student organisation so... no, not on the apparently spurious justification she used. 

 

It really surprises me that people here think it's OK for Jan Thomas to arbitrarily cancel Brash's speaking engagement for the reasons cited. It's a university! They are supposed to deal with differing views, not prevent them.

 

 

 

 

I've covered that in a post above.  She'd probably have little choice but to cancel the performance if it was the boys from the rugby club performing swan lake in tutus, if she'd been made aware that there was risk to life.

 

 

Yeah well she never reported anything to the police so this thread talk seems highly suspect.


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  Reply # 2070125 8-Aug-2018 16:08
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kryptonjohn:

 

The first thing Hitler did was control media and freedom of expression. 

 

 

Rubbish.  The first thing he did was to use freedom of expression and of the press to push his fascist ideology and denounce critics through publications and public speaking.

 

It took him more than a decade to take absolute power.

 

 


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  Reply # 2070126 8-Aug-2018 16:10
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Paul1977:

 

Just chiming back in to point out the below that Jan Thomas was quoted as saying:

 

Mr Brash's leadership of Hobson's Pledge and views he and its supporters espoused in relation to Māori wards on councils was clearly of concern to many staff, particularly Māori staff...

 

In my opinion, the views expressed by members of Hobson's Pledge come dangerously close to hate speech.

 

Sounds to me like her own political views (and some of her staff) played at least some part in her decision.

 

 

Part of, apparently, but primarily her statement focused on safety.


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  Reply # 2070130 8-Aug-2018 16:17
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kryptonjohn:

 

Yeah well she never reported anything to the police so this thread talk seems highly suspect.

 

 

Well that (IMO) was very silly of her - inexcusable when use of a firearm was claimed to have been a threat.


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  Reply # 2070132 8-Aug-2018 16:20
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Fred99:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

The first thing Hitler did was control media and freedom of expression. 

 

 

Rubbish.  The first thing he did was to use freedom of expression and of the press to push his fascist ideology and denounce critics through publications and public speaking.

 

It took him more than a decade to take absolute power.

 

 

You can't stop people doing that. If you try, you just are heading down the path of being another tyrant. This is central to our whole democratic system. Give someone the right to determine what is acceptable they'll soon use that to their advantage. It's immutable human nature.

 

Better to just allow everyone their opinion and allow open debate and transparency.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2070133 8-Aug-2018 16:21
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Fred99:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

Yeah well she never reported anything to the police so this thread talk seems highly suspect.

 

 

Well that (IMO) was very silly of her - inexcusable when use of a firearm was claimed to have been a threat.

 

 

She initially said that the reason she cancelled it was because she had Maori staff who didn't like his Hobson's Pledge background. The security stuff came later. Her story is very inconsistent.

 

 


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  Reply # 2070137 8-Aug-2018 16:25
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It's a rare day when I find myself nodding to Bomber Bradbury, but in his own inimitable style he sums it up quite well:

 

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/08/07/by-banning-don-brash-the-woke-left-strike-another-blow-for-recruiting-fascists/

 

 


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  Reply # 2070160 8-Aug-2018 17:39
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kryptonjohn:

 

Fred99:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

Yeah well she never reported anything to the police so this thread talk seems highly suspect.

 

 

Well that (IMO) was very silly of her - inexcusable when use of a firearm was claimed to have been a threat.

 

 

She initially said that the reason she cancelled it was because she had Maori staff who didn't like his Hobson's Pledge background. The security stuff came later. Her story is very inconsistent.

 

 

 

 

There's something else not consistent.  The charter should be a public document, I'd have thought it should be prominent on their website.  When I did find it, it's not accessible - password protected. That's not good.


gzt

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  Reply # 2070284 8-Aug-2018 21:02
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I'd guess anyone with a student login can retrieve it.

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  Reply # 2070298 8-Aug-2018 21:15
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gzt: I'd guess anyone with a student login can retrieve it.

 

Yes I guess so.

 

But students (and staff etc) aren't the only stakeholders, it's a fundamental governance document - and it absolutely should be public.

 

Maybe is - and I just can't find an accessible link.  Shoot (figuratively speaking of course) the IT manager ;-)

 

 


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  Reply # 2070299 8-Aug-2018 21:18
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It's been commented on elsewhere in the media that the charter is not available onine...

 

 


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