Lauren Southern to speak in NZ

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#2070305 8-Aug-2018 21:27

kryptonjohn:

It's been commented on elsewhere in the media that the charter is not available onine...

That's not acceptable. I hope TEC are aware. I believe they should probably be measuring performance against the charter (and other official documents) and reporting - perhaps there's a copy on TEC website. The only accessible link I could find on the Massey site was to some press release about a group working to write a new charter - more than a decade ago.

ACT - in criticising the vice chancellor - refer to the charter and their failure to meet it (in their opinion). Kind of hard to assess that claim if you cant see WTF they're talking about.

Maybe Massey University has a governance shambles. That's something usually delegated by council, but of course they don't like it and perhaps won't support it in spirit - as they're then held to account from within and have to follow their own rules (and you know... academics, <sigh>).

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

MikeAqua

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#2070447 9-Aug-2018 09:38

MikeB4:

Surely then Massey has the right to revoke the invitation.

Having the right to do something does not not make it a good idea, reasonable or appropriate and acceptable.

You also have to consider that this is university, which is supposed to be a bastion of free speech, open debate and critique.

As alumni of Massey, I'm seriousness disappointed in the VC.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2070448 9-Aug-2018 09:42

Fred99:

Safety is paramount.

OK, fair point ...if there was actually a substantiated risk

Do you believe there were reasonable grounds for the VC to claim a risk?

If yes, on what info do you base that?

Mike

kryptonjohn

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#2070475 9-Aug-2018 10:01

I am very suspicious that the VC is using safety as a made-up excuse. No referral to police and added later after initially whining about Brash's historical Hobson's Pledge material and how it might upset Maori staff. The only "safety" issue we know about is a letter from a known individual stating that "free speech has consequences". The rest of it, some alleged threat, is unsubstantiated last I looked.

gzt

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#2070481 9-Aug-2018 10:11

Fred99:
gzt: I'd guess anyone with a student login can retrieve it.

Yes I guess so.

But students (and staff etc) aren't the only stakeholders, it's a fundamental governance document - and it absolutely should be public.

Maybe is - and I just can't find an accessible link. Shoot (figuratively speaking of course) the IT manager ;-)

Looking at the site it's in a particular CMS and that CMS requires login. Looks to me like it's the same story since at least December, probably earlier.

kryptonjohn

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#2070556 9-Aug-2018 11:17

kryptonjohn:

I am very suspicious that the VC is using safety as a made-up excuse. No referral to police and added later after initially whining about Brash's historical Hobson's Pledge material and how it might upset Maori staff. The only "safety" issue we know about is a letter from a known individual stating that "free speech has consequences". The rest of it, some alleged threat, is unsubstantiated last I looked.

Ok, I have to correct myself as the source of the "security concern" has been revealed. I'll leave it to the reader to decide if this warranted cancelling Brash's invite:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/08/revealed-the-threats-that-shut-down-don-brash-s-massey-university-event.html

Fred99

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#2070564 9-Aug-2018 11:37

MikeAqua:

Fred99:

Safety is paramount.

OK, fair point ...if there was actually a substantiated risk

Do you believe there were reasonable grounds for the VC to claim a risk?

If yes, on what info do you base that?

Not now I don't.

Initially I did, but as I mentioned somewhere above, particularly failure of Uni management to notify police of the threat (and seeing somewhere the text of the threat), then I'm leaning toward it being almost entirely "just an excuse". And it backfired. There's a lot of noise.

Not sure what their specific Maori/Pasifika policies are. Perhaps there's something in there allowing "protection" of those interests - which is fair enough IMO, but where to start and where to stop might be ill-defined and misinterpreted. Allowing Brash to spout off about his Hobson's Pledge (which he claims he wasn't going to talk about anyway) might be deemed offensive but it's not harmful... Or is it? Presumably his wish to remove all reference to race/culture from government policy would include Education. Targets set by TEC for Maori/Pacifica engagement and completion are tough for institutions to meet and they will be slayed if they fail to meet them, inviting someone to speak on campus against that principle (it requires "affirmative action") would be seen to be threatening. Then it gets back to a debate about whether "positive discrimination" is racist, that gets emotive. It's got potential to be a big ugly debate that (IMO) we probably shouldn't have. Ultimately the result - what we have - might not be "100% democratic", as unless all of the public were well informed (and for some groups - they really won't want to be), there's a serious risk of Mob Rule rejecting affirmative action, intended to advance the lot of disadvantaged minorities.

So yet more paradoxes, on free speech, democracy etc, where "a great big public debate" probably won't have a good outcome. I'd wager that if a referendum was to be held tomorrow, asking if all "preferential treatment for maori" should be removed, there'd be an overwhelming yes vote despite wide bipartisan support for the policies we have - which are working.

kryptonjohn

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#2070576 9-Aug-2018 11:43

When the towering intellects of GZ can't come up with a solution you just *know* this is one of the great unsolved questions facing mankind! :-D

Fred99

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#2070580 9-Aug-2018 11:53

kryptonjohn:

When the towering intellects of GZ can't come up with a solution you just *know* this is one of the great unsolved questions facing mankind! :-D

That's because the topic and associated side issues are all "wicked problems"

A wicked problem is a problem that is difficult or impossible to solve because of incomplete, contradictory, and changing requirements that are often difficult to recognize. The use of the term "wicked" here has come to denote resistance to resolution, rather than evil. Another definition is "a problem whose social complexity means that it has no determinable stopping point". Moreover, because of complex interdependencies, the effort to solve one aspect of a wicked problem may reveal or create other problems.

I'm pretty thick BTW - just opinionated.

MikeAqua

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#2070591 9-Aug-2018 12:16

I just reviewed the Hobson's Pledge website. It's difficult to see as racist, given that it specifically and repeatedly calls for no distinctions of any kinds to be made on race. I don't agree with very much of it ... I think iwi in particular have an important role to play in this country and I have no strong views on the Maori seats.

What HP are calling for may very well be breach of the ToW, and therefore a breach of contract - I don't know.

Mike

kryptonjohn

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#2070653 9-Aug-2018 12:54

Fred99:

kryptonjohn:

When the towering intellects of GZ can't come up with a solution you just *know* this is one of the great unsolved questions facing mankind! :-D

That's because the topic and associated side issues are all "wicked problems"

A wicked problem is a problem that is difficult or impossible to solve because of incomplete, contradictory, and changing requirements that are often difficult to recognize. The use of the term "wicked" here has come to denote resistance to resolution, rather than evil. Another definition is "a problem whose social complexity means that it has no determinable stopping point". Moreover, because of complex interdependencies, the effort to solve one aspect of a wicked problem may reveal or create other problems.

I'm pretty thick BTW - just opinionated.

LOL thanks for that. I'm now keeping an eye out for a conversation to use this "wicket problem" idiom!

kryptonjohn

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#2070658 9-Aug-2018 13:05

MikeAqua:

I just reviewed the Hobson's Pledge website. It's difficult to see as racist, given that it specifically and repeatedly calls for no distinctions of any kinds to be made on race. I don't agree with very much of it ... I think iwi in particular have an important role to play in this country and I have no strong views on the Maori seats.

What HP are calling for may very well be breach of the ToW, and therefore a breach of contract - I don't know.

Agreed. Nothing there to suppress free speech over. It's like brainstorming a problem at work - you need to just keep chucking out ideas and you'll get a lot of stupid ideas but that doesn't matter and if you suppress the dumb ideas you'll miss out on some good ones as people will have a fear of speaking up. Sound familiar?

Some people are seriously jumping the shark now regarding hate speech, such as this one:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106108505/when-a-person-with-extreme-views-defends-free-speech-someone-gets-hurt

Calling Brash's thoughts "white, old and hopefully nearing it's use by date" is as close to hate speech I can see here. If only this women could see herself.

Fred99

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#2070774 9-Aug-2018 15:36

kryptonjohn:

MikeAqua:

I just reviewed the Hobson's Pledge website. It's difficult to see as racist, given that it specifically and repeatedly calls for no distinctions of any kinds to be made on race. I don't agree with very much of it ... I think iwi in particular have an important role to play in this country and I have no strong views on the Maori seats.

What HP are calling for may very well be breach of the ToW, and therefore a breach of contract - I don't know.

Agreed. Nothing there to suppress free speech over. It's like brainstorming a problem at work - you need to just keep chucking out ideas and you'll get a lot of stupid ideas but that doesn't matter and if you suppress the dumb ideas you'll miss out on some good ones as people will have a fear of speaking up. Sound familiar?

Some people are seriously jumping the shark now regarding hate speech, such as this one:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/106108505/when-a-person-with-extreme-views-defends-free-speech-someone-gets-hurt

Calling Brash's thoughts "white, old and hopefully nearing it's use by date" is as close to hate speech I can see here. If only this women could see herself.

There are a lot of pig-ignorant rants in the Stuff comment section of that article, and the more pig-ignorant they seem to be, the more upvoted they get:

“Imagine what would happen if every Kiwi spoke aloud what was truly on their minds or in their hearts.”
Yes imagine, because that’s all we’re allowed to do in today’s climate of muzzling debate.

That's hysterical abject bullcrap.

kryptonjohn

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#2070779 9-Aug-2018 15:39

I always assume that self selecting source like these are non representative...

Fred99

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#2070789 9-Aug-2018 15:43

kryptonjohn:

I always assume that self selecting source like these are non representative...

ROFL. Stuff comment sections get "brigaded" routinely - and they don't care. Problem is that most readers probably don't understand how that works and get a hugely biased impression of "public opinion". The result can be seen in a pile of dead sheep at the bottom of a cliff.

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