Lauren Southern to speak in NZ

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#2063564 27-Jul-2018 12:35

From the FUG:

Posts will be removed and the user will be banned if: it promotes and advocates extremism or other ideologies of hate.

Southern promotes and advocates alt-right racist identitarianism, and associates with fascists.

She is dirty filthy fascist scum - there should really be no debate about it - it's a fact.

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Rikkitic

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#2063571 27-Jul-2018 12:43

The problem isn't people like her. It is people who listen to people like her.

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Paul1977

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#2063613 27-Jul-2018 12:54

Rikkitic:

Threads like this are like worms insinuating themselves into good fruit to rot from within. Is racism bad? Well, maybe only a little racism is less bad. Is fascism evil? Maybe we can get away with just a little bit instead. Let’s sound ‘reasonable’ and see how far we can penetrate.

Lauren Southern and those who think people like her have anything valuable to say are brain worms gnawing away at the liberal values they so despise. They nibble at this and nibble at that, looking for a way in. Oh, they don’t sound so bad, bleat the nibbled brains. Let them speak. We must respect free speech.

The last thread was locked because the brain worms were getting out of control. This one should be as well.

In fairness, wasn't the last thread locked because you (as the topic starter) requested it be locked?

I have never heard this women speak (haven't watched the YouTube in the first post). I had never heard of her before the commotion about her being denied the right to speak at wherever she originally planned.

Is racism bad? In my opinion, yes.

Is fascism bad? In my opinion, yes.

But I still come back to the question of whether it is up to us to decide what is acceptable for other people to believe and say. What is accepted as morally right and wrong is different in different cultures, and is generally "majority rules".

A lot of the arguments being presented are in regards to her not having the same rights in NZ as a citizen. Fair enough, and since her views run contrary to what is accepted as "right" in this country then perhaps denying her entry would have been a perfectly acceptable action.

But lets put Lauren Southern aside for a minute, and pretend it is a NZ citizen doing a speaking tour of the country saying all the same things. Should that person be banned from speaking?

Reciprocity

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#2063625 27-Jul-2018 13:20

Fred99:
From the FUG:

Posts will be removed and the user will be banned if: it promotes and advocates extremism or other ideologies of hate.

But you already said:

Fred99:
If you think she's going to come out at a public meeting with open white supremacist fascist rants - you need to get a grip on how these filthy dirty evil scum operate.

So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make by appealing to the FUG?

Are we really at the point where the little boy (girl in this case) who cried, “Hey, isn’t it possible that the Emperor isn’t wearing any clothes?” either gets run out of town or burnt at the stake?

freitasm

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#2063626 27-Jul-2018 13:22

Lias:

I predict incoming FUG violation holidays for some of you...

Yes, someone got booted. The rest, calm down.

Rikkitic

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#2063633 27-Jul-2018 13:37

Paul1977:

In fairness, wasn't the last thread locked because you (as the topic starter) requested it be locked?

.....

But lets put Lauren Southern aside for a minute, and pretend it is a NZ citizen doing a speaking tour of the country saying all the same things. Should that person be banned from speaking?

I asked for that thread to be locked because it had degenerated and was no longer functioning as an exchange of ideas. Instead, I was being accused of fascism and racism by people who were seizing on parts of a statement I made without bothering (or being bright enough) to read what I had actually written. It was obvious where the thread was headed and there was no point in continuing it. This thread is much the same.

This discussion should be about free speech rights but it keeps veering off in other directions. Some people see free speech as an absolute right by anybody to say anything. I disagree with that. I believe there should be limits to free speech. I believe the real enemies of free speech are extremists who try to abuse free speech by claiming free speech rights to infect liberal societies and spread their poison to those who don't possess the critical faculties to fully comprehend what they are hearing. Or maybe they just want to be fascists anyway.

Some free speech advocates try to obscure the issue by saying the left is as bad as the right. Yes, extremism of any kind is equally damaging, but at this point in time the problem is not coming from the left. It is very much the province of alt-right so that is what the focus is on.

Some also try to obscure the issue by arguing that free speech has to be absolute because otherwise an 'elite' gets to control what others are allowed to say. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I think this is a false argument. It is perfectly possible to have mechanisms to guard against this. Absolute free speech does not exist in our society anyway.

As to your question, I do not see why foreigners should enjoy the same rights here as citizens. They are guests and should act like it. If a citizen wants to advocate white supremacist crap and does not break the law by doing so, of course that should be allowed, distasteful though it is. But we don't have to invite outsiders in to spread that poison. This is what I believe.

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Geektastic

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#2063658 27-Jul-2018 14:04

All I am going to add to this is that modern New Zealand really does not have much experience of this.

Try living in Europe and seeing how multiculturalism, immigration etc work when the scale is rather more industrial and you may find your opinions shifting. You may not, but you may.

Here, people generally only get to live here because they made a nice legal application, were vetted, approved and allowed to come. In much of Europe that is not so much the case.

Reciprocity

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Master Geek
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#2063667 27-Jul-2018 14:12

Rikkitic:

I asked for that thread to be locked because it had degenerated and was no longer functioning as an exchange of ideas. Instead, I was being accused of fascism and racism by people who were seizing on parts of a statement I made without bothering (or being bright enough) to read what I had actually written. It was obvious where the thread was headed and there was no point in continuing it.

orly? That wasn’t how i read it at all.

Rikkitic:
This discussion should be about free speech rights ...

Actually, that was your thread.
This is my thread, and this one is about how surprised I was by the complete lack of fascism, racism, extremism that was put forward by this speaker given all the angst and outrage that she inspires in so many.

It’s kinda disappointing that we can’t even seem to start to talk about her content without the red mist coming down for some

Lias

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#2063672 27-Jul-2018 14:21

Reciprocity:

It’s kinda disappointing that we can’t even seem to start to talk about her content without the red mist coming down for some

Because the militant left are incapable of tolerating any opinion but their approved politically correct one, and are quite prepared to use violence to stifle freedom of speech.

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Paul1977

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#2063730 27-Jul-2018 16:07

Rikkitic: As to your question, I do not see why foreigners should enjoy the same rights here as citizens. They are guests and should act like it. If a citizen wants to advocate white supremacist crap and does not break the law by doing so, of course that should be allowed, distasteful though it is. But we don't have to invite outsiders in to spread that poison. This is what I believe.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable position.

Rikkitic: I believe there should be limits to free speech.

But where do you draw the line, and who decides when the line has been crossed?

Rikkitic: I believe the real enemies of free speech are extremists who try to abuse free speech by claiming free speech rights to infect liberal societies and spread their poison to those who don't possess the critical faculties to fully comprehend what they are hearing. Or maybe they just want to be fascists anyway.

I personally think it's a dangerous attitude to assume all people who subscribe to some of these ideologies are either mentally deficient or outright fascist. It only serves to drive left and right further apart.

Rikkitic

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#2063750 27-Jul-2018 16:33

Paul1977:

I personally think it's a dangerous attitude to assume all people who subscribe to some of these ideologies are either mentally deficient or outright fascist. It only serves to drive left and right further apart.

Of course. In discussions like this one sometimes takes verbal shortcuts. those open to rational argument should be persuaded if possible. People believe things for all kinds of different reasons.

I'm not sure how to draw the line but most people manage to do it with other things just using common sense. If riots break out everywhere someone appears, that might be one place to draw it. If lots of people from many walks of life complain, that can be another one. We seem to be able to find common ground on issues of obscenity and decency, amongst other things, though sometimes with silly exceptions, and I think we ought to be able to do it here. A last resort would be the courts. There are acceptable ways to do it.

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DaveB

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#2063777 27-Jul-2018 17:31

Geektastic:

All I am going to add to this is that modern New Zealand really does not have much experience of this.

Try living in Europe and seeing how multiculturalism, immigration etc work when the scale is rather more industrial and you may find your opinions shifting. You may not, but you may.

Here, people generally only get to live here because they made a nice legal application, were vetted, approved and allowed to come. In much of Europe that is not so much the case.

What an excellent post. Factual and unemotional. Experience VS ideology.

Thank you. I hope some people take a few minutes out to consider what you say. NZ does not have much experience of this ............

My home town last weekend and it broke my heart. Recently considered one of the safest places in the UK to live. We need to work towards resolutions rather than just attacking each other on the internet, just to gain a "like".

DaveB

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#2063781 27-Jul-2018 17:39

Rikkitic:

Speaking of the worms...

No need for that. Keep it adult please.

gzt

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#2063786 27-Jul-2018 18:12

DaveB: I hope some people take a few minutes out to consider what you say. NZ does not have much experience of this ............

A combined National Front / English Defense League march against a new mosque.

Rikkitic

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#2063788 27-Jul-2018 18:26

DaveB:

What an excellent post. Factual and unemotional. Experience VS ideology.

Thank you. I hope some people take a few minutes out to consider what you say. NZ does not have much experience of this ............

My home town last weekend and it broke my heart. Recently considered one of the safest places in the UK to live. We need to work towards resolutions rather than just attacking each other on the internet, just to gain a "like".

You pretend to be a disillusioned liberal but your posts do not reflect that. They are often uninformed, illogical, or just plain wrong. I didn't bother replying to @Geektastic because everyone here except you knows he is a rabid Tory in the spirit of Enoch Powell. He is also often quite witty and that is appreciated where appropriate, but few here take his political belching seriously.

Not sure what is upsetting you about your home town. The fact that whites are demonstrating, or non-whites also live there?

I do have considerable experience of living in multiracial societies, and also white only ones when I was young. The latter were a bit unexciting, but otherwise not particularly unpleasant for me as I was also seen as one so did not experience racist taunts or violence. I stayed in London for a time, in Brixton where I had friends, and greatly enjoyed the multicultural markets and festivals there. I lived much of my life in Amsterdam, also a proudly multicultural city. The problem with people like Geektastic (and you?) is you see the social tensions that arise in every society but only look at the racial/cultural aspects and think this is somehow unique. Yes, Holland also has its share of multicultural issues, as do France and Germany and other countries, but multiculturalism isn't the problem. People are. I love multicultural societies. They are so much more interesting than the bland monocultural ones. Multiculturalism enriches us. At least those of us unimprisoned by closed minds.

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