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Lock him up!
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  # 2072583 13-Aug-2018 12:19
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mm1352000:

 

Rikkitic: Free speechers see it as an all or nothing issue.

 

What evidence do you have for this statement?

 

I may be mistaken, but to the best of my recollection, the only person that might have said that in this thread and in all the media commentary I've seen recently is Lias.

 

Even Don Brash categorically stated in the Auckland University debate (8 m 10s in this video):

 

I'm not suggesting, and no-one suggests, that free speech should be without limits.

 

 

 

 

How about this?  I can find plenty more examples all over the Internet. I'm not up to going back through this entire thread, but I'm pretty sure Lias wasn't the only one here. I'm glad you and I and Don Brash agree on this, though.

 

 

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2072586 13-Aug-2018 12:30
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MikeAqua:

 

In my case 4th form was 1989.  The Berlin Wall came down that year.

 

 

OK - a lot changed in NZ between '72 and '89 - probably reflected in the school "social studies" curriculum.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2072681 13-Aug-2018 14:15
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Rikkitic:

 

How about this?  I can find plenty more examples all over the Internet. I'm not up to going back through this entire thread, but I'm pretty sure Lias wasn't the only one here. I'm glad you and I and Don Brash agree on this, though.

 

 

I never thought I would hear in my lifetime people denouncing freedom of speech as a bad thing ...

 

I place a high level of importance on free speech because freedom ranks very highly in my personal values.  That said I recognise there have to be some limits to freedom of speech - for example threatening violence, inciting violence, hate speech.  I'd actually like to see the definition of hate speech widened to include sex, sexuality and religion.

 

But fundamentally, I believe in freedom of speech as the starting presumption with limits defined secondarily where absolutely necessary.

 

This means I will sometimes hear or see things that I strongly disagree with. But ... then again I  find I learn more from people I disagree with, than people I do.  Even if it's just learning why they think the way they do.





Mike

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  # 2072719 13-Aug-2018 15:24
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I'm not sure what you are responding to. I agree completely with your post. I stated that free speechers see freedom of speech as an all or nothing issue. I was asked to provide evidence of this. So I supplied a link. The link is to a site that I do not endorse or agree with, but it is a site that advocates for absolute free speech with no limitations of any kind. I do not agree with that stance. As far as I can tell, we are all on the same side here. Again, I don't know what you are responding to.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2072765 13-Aug-2018 16:01
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Rikkitic:

 

Again, I don't know what you are responding to.

 

 

Not necessarily responding to anything - your post prompted the thoughts set out in mine.





Mike

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  # 2072837 13-Aug-2018 17:02
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MikeAqua:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Again, I don't know what you are responding to.

 

 

Not necessarily responding to anything - your post prompted the thoughts set out in mine.

 

 

The closest I've seen to it is actually your own comment:

 

"I'd actually like to see the definition of hate speech widened to include sex, sexuality and religion."

 

Problem there is where do you stop - fat people, stupid people, ugly people - whatever?  Half the teenagers on Facebook would be demanding the other half were prosecuted.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 2072869 13-Aug-2018 17:06
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OTOH we let a couple of fascists visit for a money making business trip promoting an agenda that's not welcome by anybody except a few hard core racists, but for example deny a visa to some guy who wanted to come for his sister's wedding.


 
 
 
 


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  # 2072882 13-Aug-2018 18:04
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Rikkitic: How about this?  I can find plenty more examples all over the Internet.

 

I had assumed your statement was in reference to the more specific context and events we've been discussing. For example, I thought you might have been claiming that the Free Speech Coalition or some of its members think of free speech in that way.

 

Rikkitic: As far as I can tell, we are all on the same side here.

 

Yes, that does seem to be the case, both in this thread, and from what I've seen and heard, amongst the wider New Zealand public as well. On that basis, I was confused by your earlier reply. It was as if you were claiming that the free speech advocates who supported the opportunity for Southern, Molyneux and/or Brash to speak were doing so on the basis that they thought all speech ought to be allowed.

 

 


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  # 2072888 13-Aug-2018 18:48
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I did not intend to suggest that every free speech advocate is an absolutist. The extremists are.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2073291 14-Aug-2018 14:12
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undecidedThis is precious. Poor crypto-fascists are begging for donations to cover expenses for their unprofitable trip to New Zealand.

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2073312 14-Aug-2018 14:57
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Fred99:

 

"I'd actually like to see the definition of hate speech widened to include sex, sexuality and religion."

 

Problem there is where do you stop - fat people, stupid people, ugly people - whatever?  Half the teenagers on Facebook would be demanding the other half were prosecuted.

 

 

The Human Rights Act itself sets out a finite list of prohibited grounds of discrimination.  Some/all of those would be a logical and sensible place to stop.  These are generally common demographic traits like sex, sexuality, religion, disability etc.

 

The hate speech section of the HRA is very specific ("words likely to excite hostility against or bring into contempt any group of persons ...") and has been used sparingly.   I can't see it being used to sort out a twitter spat between groups of teenagers or to crack down on fat-shaming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





Mike

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  # 2073317 14-Aug-2018 15:06
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Rikkitic:

 

undecidedThis is precious. Poor crypto-fascists are begging for donations to cover expenses for their unprofitable trip to New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"He said if anyone was happy to donate the cost of their ticket to the pair, that would be appreciated."

 

 

 

Not exactly "begging" is it.


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  # 2073356 14-Aug-2018 15:25
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You seem very eager to defend them. Why would that be?

 

Beggar in street: Could you spare some change? It would be appreciated.

 

Not much difference as far as I can tell.

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2073357 14-Aug-2018 15:29
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Rikkitic:

 

You seem very eager to defend them. Why would that be?

 

Beggar in street: Could you spare some change? It would be appreciated.

 

Not much difference as far as I can tell.

 

 

 

 

Where was I defending them? 

 

I'm simply saying it's clearly not begging. No need to exaggerate anything here.

 

 


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  # 2073366 14-Aug-2018 15:38
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msreef:

 

Not exactly "begging" is it?

 

 

Yes it most certainly is, exactly.

 

(I added a "?" to your statement that wasn't - because it seemed to be begging a reply)

 

 

beg bɛɡ/ verb
gerund or present participle: begging
1. ask someone earnestly or humbly for something.  


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