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  Reply # 2064781 30-Jul-2018 09:02
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mm1352000:

 

On the other hand, I think some have been too quick to put the speakers in boxes and slap labels on them. If you disagree with their views, I think pointing out and directly criticising specific things they say and do would be far more effective than the "no-platforming" approach (which in my opinion has given them far more publicity than they otherwise would have received).

 

 

Now lets see:

 

Coming on a political mission, to a multicultural and generally tolerant country to preach a message that multiculturalism is bad, preaching that some races are inferior to others, that "we" (white people) are under threat from "them" (who are already here) and that there's a deliberate formal policy of "white genocide" going on, that society should be run along authoritarian grounds, that women should know their place and keep to it - and stop bleating about things like being raped, that people desperate for asylum should be deliberately left to drown - that you should block their rescue.

 

So nope - put her in a box - she's a full-on fascist - there's really nothing to discuss. When individual issues are communicated by dog-whistle, lies and inaccuracies, symbols, and inactions rather than direct actions, and as it's a quasi-religious cult movement targeting "disaffected" morons to recruit, good luck arguing against their belief system. 

 

 


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  Reply # 2064891 30-Jul-2018 11:48
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Fred99: Headline for the leaflet - "It's OK to be white".

 

I haven't seen the leaflet - no interest in anything produced by that lot.  One would hope however that in a tolerant society it is OK to be any race/colour/ethnicity.  It's not a choice and individuals should be judged by their actions.

 

Outrageous human rights abuses occur when dominant groups are shoved out of power too - for example in Zimbabwe in the 1990's and 2000's.  It's a line-call whether Mugabe or Smith proved worse in the end. There are some recent signs of similar atrocities in SA - but without overt government support.

 

I believe we need to stop thinking of 'white' (and in NZ Pakeha/European) as an ethnicity and culture.  It's neither.  The word white seems to have become a pejorative term for the left (along with man) and a rallying cry for for the alt-right. 

 

One side of my lot were Scots, the other Bretons - completely different cultures.  My partners family were Croatian, my best friends family are proudly Greek.  All different cultures and distinct ethnicities.  It's not seen as diversity but it is.

 

 





Mike

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2064893 30-Jul-2018 11:53
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Fred99:

 

Coming on a political mission, to a multicultural and generally tolerant country to preach a message that multiculturalism is bad

 

 

In this country despite having over 200 ethnicities (StatsNZ) we are officially bi-cultural: From a crown perspective there are Maori (treaty partner) and others.

 

There is little interest on the part of the crown to consider multiculturalism and little interest on the part of Maori (in commentaries I have seen) in considering multiculturalism until a bi-cultural society is achieved.

 

 





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  Reply # 2064905 30-Jul-2018 12:12
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Constitutionally bicultural, functionally multicultural.  I don't have any real problem with that.

 

 


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  Reply # 2064912 30-Jul-2018 12:27
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As I said earlier, I haven't heard what Lauren Southern has to say. But based on many of the comments in this thread I have  pretty good idea.

 

But something disturbing I am seeing more and more (and DaveB touched on this earlier in the thread) is this:

 

We don't live in a fairy tale world where everyone gets along. Where there are different cultures living together there will be tensions. It would be wonderful if this wasn't the case, but that just isn't how it is yet.

 

I don't believe that these tensions are 100% the result of racists and fascists, but it seems like anyone who dares even suggest the blame doesn't lie entirely with racist white people gets labelled a closet racist/fascist themselves.

 

It's not that the left are wrong in the ideals that they believe in, and I'm not saying the racism and fascism aren't a problem; but the left can be extremely quick to label anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything they say as being sexist, racist, or fascist.

 

So the only voices we end up hearing are the two extremes, because everyone else is too afraid to say anything. So no rational discussion happens at all, the problems remain, and tensions just get worse.


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  Reply # 2064924 30-Jul-2018 12:41
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Paul1977:

 

It's not that the left are wrong in the ideals that they believe in, and I'm not saying the racism and fascism aren't a problem; but the left can be extremely quick to label anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything they say as being sexist, racist, or fascist.

 

So the only voices we end up hearing are the two extremes, because everyone else is too afraid to say anything. So no rational discussion happens at all, the problems remain, and tensions just get worse.

 

 

This.





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  Reply # 2064930 30-Jul-2018 12:55
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MikeAqua:

 

Paul1977:

 

It's not that the left are wrong in the ideals that they believe in, and I'm not saying the racism and fascism aren't a problem; but the left can be extremely quick to label anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything they say as being sexist, racist, or fascist.

 

So the only voices we end up hearing are the two extremes, because everyone else is too afraid to say anything. So no rational discussion happens at all, the problems remain, and tensions just get worse.

 

 

This.

 

 

No - absolutely not that IMO.

 

There are no "two sides" to the discussion.  There are facts - she is a racist and white supremacist. The divide is between wrong and right - not left and right.

 

It's delusional to suggest that strongly opposing such views is equivalent "extremism" - or that there's some mid-point from which rational discussion can be had.

 

Perhaps the "extremist" view is made elsewhere (ie to confront this person with acts of violence) - but it's not being made here. 


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  Reply # 2064936 30-Jul-2018 13:05
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I guess it depends on what you mean by the 'left'. This is a label that gets tossed around a lot, but it rarely gets defined. I am utterly opposed to extremism of any kind. I don't care what label it is attached to. Those who try to define racism as a white-only problem are being either silly or malicious. But it is worth pointing out that most (though not all) of the unarmed innocent victims of police shootings in the USA are not white people. I think it can fairly be said that non-whites suffer a lot more from racism than whites do. If there is a perception imbalance here, there is a reason for it.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2064938 30-Jul-2018 13:06
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Paul1977:

 

It's not that the left are wrong in the ideals that they believe in, and I'm not saying the racism and fascism aren't a problem; but the left can be extremely quick to label anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything they say as being sexist, racist, or fascist.

 

So the only voices we end up hearing are the two extremes, because everyone else is too afraid to say anything. So no rational discussion happens at all, the problems remain, and tensions just get worse.

 

 

This.

 

 

No - absolutely not that IMO.

 

There are no "two sides" to the discussion.  There are facts - she is a racist and white supremacist. The divide is between wrong and right - not left and right.

 

It's delusional to suggest that strongly opposing such views is equivalent "extremism" - or that there's some mid-point from which rational discussion can be had.

 

Perhaps the "extremist" view is made elsewhere (ie to confront this person with acts of violence) - but it's not being made here. 

 

 

I haven't heard her speak, but for the purposes of this discussion I am happy to take your word for it that she is indeed a white supremacist.

 

But that is completely irreverent to what I said. I was commenting on the trend I am seeing more and more often from the left, and you seem to have taken it as me defending a white supremacist. Kind of proving my point.


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  Reply # 2064946 30-Jul-2018 13:25
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Rikkitic:

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by the 'left'. This is a label that gets tossed around a lot, but it rarely gets defined. I am utterly opposed to extremism of any kind. I don't care what label it is attached to. Those who try to define racism as a white-only problem are being either silly or malicious. But it is worth pointing out that most (though not all) of the unarmed innocent victims of police shootings in the USA are not white people. I think it can fairly be said that non-whites suffer a lot more from racism than whites do. If there is a perception imbalance here, there is a reason for it.

 

 

I used the term "left" just to make my argument more concise, I think it is generally understood what I mean. And certainly non-whites suffer far more from racism than whites do.

 

But the root of the issue needs to be addressed, and I believe (for the most part) racism is a symptom more than a cause (obviously excluding the extreme right who are just overtly racist and fascist).

 

EDIT: And the root causes can't be discussed if the only ones talking are extremists who each have the unshakeable belief that they are 100% right.


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  Reply # 2064951 30-Jul-2018 13:31
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Fred99:

 

There are no "two sides" to the discussion.  There are facts - she is a racist and white supremacist. The divide is between wrong and right - not left and right.

 

It's delusional to suggest that strongly opposing such views is equivalent "extremism" - or that there's some mid-point from which rational discussion can be had.

 

Perhaps the "extremist" view is made elsewhere (ie to confront this person with acts of violence) - but it's not being made here. 

 

 

I thought he was making a more general point.  The left does have tendency to find way to label anyone who disagree with them *-ist.  The right uses different stock pejorative terms (tree-hugger, socialist/communist etc).  Labelling people rather than engaging in proper debate is unhelpful - whoever does it. 

 

I have no issue with calling out real *-isms - but using them as a smokescreen and a general tactic to discredit your opponents is ultimately damaging to the pursuit of the tolerance people claim to be seeking.  I even find attacking people for so-called sub-concious bias suspect.  Either it's concious bias and we are just being too polite, or it's sub-concious and people are unaware.

 

 





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  Reply # 2064952 30-Jul-2018 13:32
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Paul1977:

 

I haven't heard her speak, but for the purposes of this discussion I am happy to take your word for it that she is indeed a white supremacist.

 

But that is completely irreverent to what I said. I was commenting on the trend I am seeing more and more often from the left, and you seem to have taken it as me defending a white supremacist. Kind of proving my point.

 

 

The thread is about Lauren Southern - who is a white supremacist.

 

I'm not accusing you of defending her - but commenting that as there's surely a bottom line (racism is wrong) - then there's NO debate.

 

If you want to draw a parallel with some other crime against humanity, try child-abuse or wife beating or whatever - where there's almost complete consensus that abuse of an unequal power relationship and using that to persecute others for your own benefit/pleasure as victims *for any reason* is wrong.

 

Why should she (or anybody) expect a civil response if instead of racism, she was promoting child abuse, beating women etc?

 

She is scum.


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  Reply # 2064953 30-Jul-2018 13:36
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Fred99:

 

I'm not accusing you of defending her - but commenting that as there's surely a bottom line (racism is wrong) - then there's NO debate.

 

 

*-ism is quite acceptable though, so long as it's directed toward 'white' people or men (except gay-men). 

 

*-ism has been re-defined to exclude  groups affected by social and economic disparity from accountability for their behaviour - unless it is driected toward group that is perceived as more marginalised.  Then the person can be *-ist.

 

The emperor is clad in G-string and nothing else.





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  Reply # 2064954 30-Jul-2018 13:39
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MikeAqua:

 

Fred99:

 

There are no "two sides" to the discussion.  There are facts - she is a racist and white supremacist. The divide is between wrong and right - not left and right.

 

It's delusional to suggest that strongly opposing such views is equivalent "extremism" - or that there's some mid-point from which rational discussion can be had.

 

Perhaps the "extremist" view is made elsewhere (ie to confront this person with acts of violence) - but it's not being made here. 

 

 

I thought he was making a more general point.  The left does have tendency to find way to label anyone who disagree with them *-ist.  The right uses different stock pejorative terms (tree-hugger, socialist/communist etc).  Labelling people rather than engaging in proper debate is unhelpful - whoever does it. 

 

I have no issue with calling out real *-isms - but using them as a smokescreen and a general tactic to discredit your opponents is ultimately damaging to the pursuit of the tolerance people claim to be seeking.

 

 

 

 

Except that she is exactly as I've described, racist, white supremacist, fascist.  She chooses not to call herself by those terms, rejects accusations others make that she's a fascist by listing differences between her ideology and Nazism - and in doing so pretty well defines herself as the fascist she says she isn't.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2064956 30-Jul-2018 13:43
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MikeAqua:

 

*-ism is quite acceptable though, so long as it's directed toward 'white' people or men (except gay-men). 

 

 

Oh dear.  No it isn't.


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