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  Reply # 2065481 31-Jul-2018 10:02
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Rikkitic:

 

Trying to conduct a 'scientific' debate with racists seems like a waste of time to me. Just look at the scientific debates about fluoride, vaccination, climate change, etc. No amount of science or logic is going to make any of these people think any differently. It is not about science or logic. It is about prejudice and emotion.

 

 

Also ... science should be subservient to ethics. Those ethics should reflect the consensus of the wider community - which is opposed to discrimination.

 

Because ethics should reflect the consensus of the wider community, they don't need to reflect the lunatic fringe - anti-vaccers, anti-flouride.

 

Consensus won't always be clear on ethical issues (for example the use of 1080).  But it generally is.





Mike

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  Reply # 2065547 31-Jul-2018 10:58
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Paul1977:

 

I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion.

 

Maybe it's just my perception, or maybe I haven't conveyed my points clearly enough; but I genuinely feel as if my comments are being seen by several other members as defending the alt-right - which couldn't be further from the truth.

 

 

Some people have trouble with subtlety. I often get hammered for things I didn’t actually say. As far as I can tell from your comments, you have only suggested that some potential alt-rightists might be talked out of it with the correct approach. I don’t personally think so, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with the idea as long as it doesn't provide a propaganda platform for the enemy.

 

I have been thinking a lot about my childhood. I grew up in a conservative family values time and place. Traditional conservatism is just that: traditional and conservative. Traditional means valuing a certain way of doing things that has been inherited from the past. Conservative means wanting to keep things the way they are. There is nothing inherently wrong with either of these. They describe my own father, who was one of the finest human beings I have ever had the privilege of knowing.

 

Traditional conservatives are people who cherish certain values, but they don’t despise those who think differently. They are open to discussion and debate. They respect their opponents and they believe in playing fair. They are fundamentally decent people who want to make the world a better place for everyone. They believe in church and family and are wary of radical change, or change for its own sake.

 

I am not one of them, but I respect them for what they are. I think John McCain is probably a good example of one, though he never should have let himself be talked into choosing Sarah Palin as a running mate.

 

The alt-right are not traditional conservatives. They are not conservative at all in the usual sense. They do not respect those who oppose them and they do not believe in playing fair. They are, as one poster here has described them, a cult. It is a political cult rather than a religious one, though an element of religious fundamentalism seems to run through it. As a cult, its adherents are convinced their way is the only way and any means are justified to achieve their goal. They do not reject violence and intimidation as tools to advance their cause. They despise liberal democracy and its defenders, and they are prepared to lie, cheat and threaten in order to tear it down. They are absolutists who want to rule the world, and they have no tolerance for those who look, act or think differently than they do. Like the serpent in the Garden, they use any means available to achieve their purpose, and to that end are capable of charm and guile and appearing to make ‘reasonable’ arguments and demands for their cause as they constantly chip away at the fundaments of democracy.

 

I do not think such people can be reasoned with. I do not think their minds can be changed with logic or fact. I do not think they should be granted any latitude at all to come in to our society and spread their toxic message to potential recruits. I do not think there should be a dialogue with them. They are a plague of pythons and any kind of concession to them is an invitation to be swallowed up. People should not be fooled.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2065571 31-Jul-2018 11:43
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MikeAqua:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Trying to conduct a 'scientific' debate with racists seems like a waste of time to me. Just look at the scientific debates about fluoride, vaccination, climate change, etc. No amount of science or logic is going to make any of these people think any differently. It is not about science or logic. It is about prejudice and emotion.

 

 

Also ... science should be subservient to ethics. Those ethics should reflect the consensus of the wider community - which is opposed to discrimination.

 

Because ethics should reflect the consensus of the wider community, they don't need to reflect the lunatic fringe - anti-vaccers, anti-flouride.

 

Consensus won't always be clear on ethical issues (for example the use of 1080).  But it generally is.

 

 

If science was to have been kept subservient to ethics, then the sun would still be circling the earth.

 

"Ethics" gets hijacked by religion - and we always seem to end up with special spokespeople - ah hell - almost always "spokesmen" telling dirty big lies in order to control the masses - liars that claim to have special access to the invisible man in the sky - when of course they're just making up this special status, granting privileges to themselves and their mates.

 

I do believe you'll find that Southern and Molyneaux use biblical citations to justify their desire to be leaders in the pan-western alliance - the anti-liberal, anti-muslim, anti-atheist, anti-socialist fascist new reich that they think is going to happen.

 

 


gzt

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  Reply # 2065949 31-Jul-2018 23:00
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Paul1977: Maybe it's just my perception, or maybe I haven't conveyed my points clearly enough; but I genuinely feel as if my comments are being seen by several other members as defending the alt-right - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Personally I did not feel that your comments were in defense of the alt-right. To a large extent in many cases with the people you're talking about it's a case of missing the old times and not quite having the vision to go fowards so they tend to look backwards it's easier. Perhaps more so when they lack mobility. I can think of people who are nostalgic about 'the old neighborhood' people these days etc even where everyone new is still the same colour and same religion. Tea, cakes and chess at the mosque once a week perhaps.
(notify @Paul1977)

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  Reply # 2067274 3-Aug-2018 09:38
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Stuff article - uninteresting IMO except for the comments section.
That's a great example of how brigading on a social media platform can lead to fake news, the most popular comments suggesting that these two aren't racist (untrue - they are), that they aren't close to being "far-right" (they are - perhaps those idiots think you need to wear a uniform) and authoritatively stating that there's "no such thing as hate speech" (which is a lie - there is).
https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/105940852/multiple-groups-planning-peaceful-protest-at-lauren-southern-stefan-molyneux-event

 

 

 

 

 

 


gzt

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  Reply # 2067302 3-Aug-2018 10:20
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Southern's latest before leaving Australia:
1. 'someone' says there is a 'no go area' nearby
2. Southern's team calls police to advise them she will be going like you know just in case.
3. Walks around for a while with cameras ignoring non-muslim australians totally everywhere..
5. Blah blah Islam blah blah
6. Goes in direction of mosque..
7. Police officer appears and says I'd really prefer you did not do that..
8. Omg Sharia !, sharia ! Police enforcing sharia law! omg..

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  Reply # 2067391 3-Aug-2018 11:40
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I think it was a mistake to allow those people a podium here, but what is done is done. A shame so many want to give them money to hear their rubbish. I cannot view this as a victory for free speech. It is like saying malaria-carrying mosquitoes should have the freedom to bite. These are not normal people with normal ideas. They are shameless bottom feeders seeking to profit from the frustrated anger of their brainless followers. New Zealand should know better.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2067420 3-Aug-2018 12:22
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I'd never heard of either of these characters until Goff's publicity about the council staff's decision to exclude them from council venues.

 

Having done some research I'm still not bothered by them speaking.

 

They spout offensive crap, but it's obviously crap and I believe that the vast majority of NZrs will see it as crap. 

 

People who want to believe it will, but I'm not sure that changes anything.





Mike

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  Reply # 2067466 3-Aug-2018 13:50
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Rikkitic: A shame so many want to give them money to hear their rubbish.

I'm not sure they will say how many and all that anyway. Maybe more so with Goff's Striesand effect promotion. In Australia after Southern's warm up, Molyneaux spent half an hour on aboriginals practiced infanticide and can you imagine the numbers of babies they killed over x thousand years compared to the very small numbers of aboriginals killed by anyone else? blah blah blah some thing about guilt in his second half hour Pretty ugly and silly stuff to say the least..

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  Reply # 2067475 3-Aug-2018 14:26
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There are some ugly and silly people who take it seriously. Who needs this crap? Most of us have better things to do.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2067487 3-Aug-2018 14:49
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The show is off - the owner of the venue has apparently pulled the pin and cancelled the event.

 

I don't know if a reason has been given - but there's an obvious one.  These scumbags troll to deliberately provoke threats against them - they've weaponised that idea.  Of course some idiots will take the bait.  If your insurance covers riot (many policies don't), you're still going to have to have a good chat to your insurers to make sure they're satisfied you're taking all practical steps to minimise risk of damage.


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  Reply # 2067589 3-Aug-2018 16:24
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Yay! I don't care what the reason is. The sooner those buttholes are back in their slime patch, the better.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2067641 3-Aug-2018 18:06
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Did you watch their Australian event? How they said whites are superior to aborigenes and all the racist crap they spouted?





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  Reply # 2067668 3-Aug-2018 18:44
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freitasm: Did 6ou watch their Australian event? How they said whites are superior to aborigenes and all the racist crap they spouted?

 

Was this from the young dumb gormless blonde (who had a black boyfriend... once <or more>), or the ageing white incel loser?

 

The pair of them are very poor examples of humanity - God help us if they're examples of what white "superiority" has to offer.


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  Reply # 2067705 3-Aug-2018 19:28
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Molyneux explained his take on the situation at length but without offering any evidence of actual threats.

 

 

Womp womp. 

 

So even the BS argument about "antifa terrorists" was an abject fail.  Losers.

 

 


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