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#2126780 14-Nov-2018 19:44

Ive learnt something today. There is/was no housing/education/health crisis. My only conclusion is that doctors/nurses/home buyers are greedy

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networkn

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#2126782 14-Nov-2018 19:46

What a childish response. I'd have expected better from you.

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#2126784 14-Nov-2018 19:54

networkn: What a childish response. I'd have expected better from you.

It is not childish at all.

Its stated clearly here that these three sectors are not an issue. Very clearly. Sorry, but don't play that game, (again and again) discuss. Discussion in these political threads is rare, as its largely party bias than discussion

Explain your response concisely

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#2126793 14-Nov-2018 20:25

tdgeek:

networkn: What a childish response. I'd have expected better from you.

It is not childish at all.

Its stated clearly here that these three sectors are not an issue. Very clearly. Sorry, but don't play that game, (again and again) discuss. Discussion in these political threads is rare, as its largely party bias than discussion

Explain your response concisely

It is childish. You made a statement which doesn't accurately reflect what I said, in an effort to bait a response. It's you who is playing games. YOU said they were greedy. I neither said nor inferred it, you said it to try and elicit a response. If you deny that, then honestly, I'm done talking with you.

I didn't say there was a problem, I said there wasn't in my view a CRISIS. People often want better pay, and better working conditions. I'd suggest 90%+ of Kiwi's would answer yes to a survey asking if they want better pay/conditions.

The Government, as NZ's largest employer, has to balance it's priorities. It has in my view made a very fair offer. The Unions are playing games and being uncooperative and from what I have seen you say, you agree with that at least.

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#2126813 14-Nov-2018 20:55

networkn:

tdgeek:

networkn: What a childish response. I'd have expected better from you.

It is not childish at all.

Its stated clearly here that these three sectors are not an issue. Very clearly. Sorry, but don't play that game, (again and again) discuss. Discussion in these political threads is rare, as its largely party bias than discussion

Explain your response concisely

It is childish. You made a statement which doesn't accurately reflect what I said, in an effort to bait a response. It's you who is playing games. YOU said they were greedy. I neither said nor inferred it, you said it to try and elicit a response. If you deny that, then honestly, I'm done talking with you.

I didn't say there was a problem, I said there wasn't in my view a CRISIS. People often want better pay, and better working conditions. I'd suggest 90%+ of Kiwi's would answer yes to a survey asking if they want better pay/conditions.

The Government, as NZ's largest employer, has to balance it's priorities. It has in my view made a very fair offer. The Unions are playing games and being uncooperative and from what I have seen you say, you agree with that at least.

You are very passionate. I like that a lot, and you know that. Your passion towards National is well over the top, you avoid what you choose to, thats defensive, and its not a discussion. DISCUSS with facts, or as is often the case for any of us, opinion, and backup your opinion. But if you choose to be so biased that it clouds your view as others here have stated (and Im not referring to the usual offenders) and be just plain defensive, its valueless, and its not a discussion. Calling me childish for offering my post is childish. But you often have an issue with being disagreed upon. I could quite easily use adjectives freely if someone disagreed with me. I am very reluctant to sink to that level. Thats a problem you have. I am sorry to have to say that. If someone disagrees with me, then A) I'm wrong, enlighten me, or B) you have a different option, tell me why your opinion is correct. Its simple, its a discussion.

No, unlike others here I don't bait a response. My statement was very clear. There is no housing crisis, there is no health crisis, there is no education crisis.

So, people want better pay and so on. Backing that up with 90% of Kiwis want better pay/conditions is pretty meek. If not weak, you are avoiding.

IMHO there is a housing crisis, if anyone objects say so and why

IMHO there is an education and healthcare crisis. You can backtrack by saying its a problem not a crisis. Again, weak. But explain why its JUST a problem and not a crisis. After all its just a discussion. I'm all ears.I have no issue being corrected or informed, but I also have no inherent bias to rark me up.

Yes, I very much agree with the last paragraph.

Back to the greedy comment. Its been made quite clear here by some, that there is no real issue with housing, health and education. As you offer, it's a problem, not a crisis. The continual newsfeeds might dispute that. But thats open to interpretation. If there is no crises, just problems, then those in the three sectors being greedy is a fair response. Its not ideal, but its not that bad (i.e. just a problem), so me saying they are greedy is quite fair, if it is just a problem, not a crisis.

Obviously I dont agree and I am making a point, but based on some comments its actually a very fair point.

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#2126947 15-Nov-2018 08:38

Last time I heard about issues in health and to a lesser extent education, a significant part of what those people are raising through their unions are not enough graduates, and other issues associated with staffing. Pay is a large factor, but there are other issues building up for a long time.

As with many of these things deserves its own topic because nothiing really gets completed in this topic and it's not attracting any new contributors.

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#2126950 15-Nov-2018 08:49

gzt: Last time I heard about issues in health and to a lesser extent education, a significant part of what those people are raising through their unions are not enough graduates, and other issues associated with staffing. Pay is a large factor, but there are other issues building up for a long time.

As with many of these things deserves its own topic because nothiing really gets completed in this topic and it's not attracting any new contributors.

True and true

Teachers say its not about pay its about staffing, maybe drop the pay offer back and add staffing? Health was very similar, staffing and facilities

The bottom line is, there is no bottomless pit of funds, accept the offer, work with and lobby Govt for a long term plan. Staffing itself cannot be fixed overnight, unless we import

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#2127072 15-Nov-2018 10:38

I think part of the problem here is the emotive language used. "Crisis" is a label that should be used with restraint IMHO, and the Media are prone to overuse of this (and other alarmist language) because it generates headlines and drums up public interest.

The problem with "Crisis" is that you can't really get much worse from there. If the situation deteriorates further, all you're left with is a "worsening of the X crisis"

Consider the housing market in NZ at the moment. What measures might we consider to be the threshold for the market being in crisis?

Houses not being bought and sold on the open market?
Kiwis being unable to purchase property because of foreign buyers?
Insufficient housing stock to contain a growing population?

None of these conditions currently exist. QV.co.nz records show more than 14,000 residential properties were bought and sold in NZ over the past three months. That's more than one every 10minutes. The market appears to be functioning well.

Foreign buyers have been banned from purchasing property, but even before that Statistics NZ had the number of foreign buyers at a mere 3%. (Other reports showed that it could potentially be as much as 11-21%) But even in the worst case scenario, you still had almost 80% of all those sales being to kiwis. Hardly crisis level.

NZ also has 38,130 residential listings currently for sale on realestate.co.nz No great shortage there. In fact, much of the industry commentary speaks to a market that is healthy & buoyant.

Now, if any of those three things were to change, then you might rightly use the term "crisis". But what we're really talking about is that in some areas of NZ, houses are expensive. Not so expensive that people are unable to afford them (otherwise they wouldn't be selling) but more expensive than some people think is reasonable.

That doesn't meet my personal threshold for "crisis", but for some it might.

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#2127082 15-Nov-2018 11:02

Here are some dictionary definitions of 'crisis':

Collins: a turning point in the course of anything; decisive or crucial time, stage, or event

a time of great danger or trouble, often one which threatens to result in unpleasant consequences

a crucial stage or turning point in the course of something, esp in a sequence of events or a disease

an unstable period, esp one of extreme trouble or danger in politics, economics, etc

Webster’s: A crisis is a situation in which something or someone is affected by one or more very serious problems.

an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending especially : one with the distinct possibility of a highly undesirable outcome a financial crisis the nation's energy crisis

a situation that has reached a critical phase the environmental crisis the unemployment crisis

Oxford: A time of intense difficulty or danger.
‘the current economic crisis’

A time when a difficult or important decision must be made.

On the basis of these, I think any of the three areas under discussion (housing, health care, education) could easily qualify, especially under certain circumstances. I don't think the term 'crisis' is hyperbole at all.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2127083 15-Nov-2018 11:03

Fair points. But, of the sales that occur, how many are new home buyers, and how would the market be if prices:average salary were much less than 10+ now? I imagine many sales are from those on the ladder who are insulated and always will be. While 3% is low, that 3% exerted maximum price pressure, as unlike an auction where the bidding results in a top bid, many of the foreignors just kept bidding as its a great buy for them, from their overseas view. When prices rise, other areas follow. I see it as a crisis, although I admit that is a highly emotive term, but OTOH there will be many upon many who will never get their first home, that normally would have. That seeps down to rents as to get a reasonable return, rents increase, so the housing "crisis" affects home owners and non home owners. Down the track, renters wont have growing equity to pump back into the economy. The overriding factor is home ownership has become extremely unaffordable.

Health and Education wise, they say they are underpaid, and under staffed. These people educate and care for us. Is it that bad, or are they whining? Or is it a HUGE problem? Or is it not? Its hard to see it as just a problem, "shut up, just deal with it" etc

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#2127084 15-Nov-2018 11:04

Also... This is fabulous :-)

Rikkitic

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#2127094 15-Nov-2018 11:19

6FIEND:

Also... This is fabulous :-)

Absolutely brilliant! Everyone should see this. At the least, link it to epic videos thread.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2127096 15-Nov-2018 11:20

Rikkitic:

Here are some dictionary definitions of 'crisis':

Collins: a turning point in the course of anything; decisive or crucial time, stage, or event

a time of great danger or trouble, often one which threatens to result in unpleasant consequences

a crucial stage or turning point in the course of something, esp in a sequence of events or a disease

an unstable period, esp one of extreme trouble or danger in politics, economics, etc

Webster’s: A crisis is a situation in which something or someone is affected by one or more very serious problems.

an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending especially : one with the distinct possibility of a highly undesirable outcome a financial crisis the nation's energy crisis

a situation that has reached a critical phase the environmental crisis the unemployment crisis

Oxford: A time of intense difficulty or danger.
‘the current economic crisis’

A time when a difficult or important decision must be made.

On the basis of these, I think any of the three areas under discussion (housing, health care, education) could easily qualify, especially under certain circumstances. I don't think the term 'crisis' is hyperbole at all.

Dictionary definitions don't mean anything to the press or politicians.

tdgeek

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#2127098 15-Nov-2018 11:25

It is! :-)

Bluntj

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#2127115 15-Nov-2018 11:54

You can agree to differ...

I agree that the teachers are now being greedy and spinning to the media about it NOT being about money...

As I said earlier that they did deserve a correction, but its now out of hand. Getting $12k each extra per annum is massive and should have been enough to avert strike action. If its not about money they could have taken less and put the rest into hiring teachers aids etc...or they could donate their holiday job money to a charity for childrens lunches/shoes.

I thought this government was going to be about helping the needy, not the greedy.

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