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#2141421 8-Dec-2018 08:43

GV27:

tdgeek:

bmt:

Left work at 5:15pm today and took me 50 minutes to get home. Its a 12 minute drive off-peak in the opposite direction. National completely and utterly failed to address congestion properly and the entire city suffers as a result. I have zero qualms about paying an extra transport levy to help fix this monumental cluster.

As for election promises, I wonder what would have happened to those Northland bridges National promised if they had actually won the by-election....

Did they promise that? Did you read the promises and detail they provided in the 2008 election that I linked to earlier? Its a good read

Everyone has figured out that giving money to people gets your more votes than spending it on badly-needed infrastructure.

Sad but true.

If Labour were serious about it, we'd have SH16 LRT time frames, the cap on immigration they promised and instead we have neither.

Do you want time frames for every policy? That would be good, but how many things have to get done?

"Everyone has figured out that giving money to people gets your more votes than spending it on badly-needed infrastructure." Not entirely true. Labour campaigned on taking away the $40 per week bribe. Which is more valuable to Labours demographic, yet the masses didnt buy into the bribe. They recognised the continual underfunding and took that option. When there has been so much underfunding, thats a tough catchup, and it will take time.

Immigration I agree, that was a dumb policy. Some immigration needs to be reigned in, and use other sectors to use immigration as a tool to get work done.

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GV27

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#2141433 8-Dec-2018 09:12

tdgeek:

Do you want time frames for every policy? That would be good, but how many things have to get done?

"Everyone has figured out that giving money to people gets your more votes than spending it on badly-needed infrastructure." Not entirely true. Labour campaigned on taking away the $40 per week bribe. Which is more valuable to Labours demographic, yet the masses didnt buy into the bribe. They recognised the continual underfunding and took that option. When there has been so much underfunding, thats a tough catchup, and it will take time.

Immigration I agree, that was a dumb policy. Some immigration needs to be reigned in, and use other sectors to use immigration as a tool to get work done.

I commute along a basic road in West Auckland that is already bumper to bumper at 630am. There are 6,000 houses going in between where I live and Westgate, regardless of when/if the Light Rail we supposedly badly need comes along. It was important enough to campaign on.

As for the $40 per week bribe - they upped WFFTC and the baby bonus that everyone gets regardless of if they actually need it. As a taxpayer with a student loan, I lost my tax cut and still have to pay back my loan, while underwriting free education for all first years, again, regardless of whether they actually need it. And that's before the ridiculous farce of having to up the Kiwibuild prices because they campaigned using out of date costing figures while shouting down anyone who questioned how they were going to deliver it.

As for the underfunding; until they do start spending up like they promised, they're going to keep falling behind of they don't do anything to address the immigration side of things. That might buy us some time; it would at least stop us from going backwards as fast as we have been for the last 15 years.

I'm less inclined to cut them slack because they spent long enough in opposition and decrying every little thing that National did that they should have had their own policies ready to go on day one. No one seems particularly fussed about calling them out on their policy backflips other than Garner and Hosking, who are both pretty easily dismissed. Everyone else seems to be playing the 'look the other way' game.

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#2141442 8-Dec-2018 09:39

GV27:

tdgeek:

Do you want time frames for every policy? That would be good, but how many things have to get done?

"Everyone has figured out that giving money to people gets your more votes than spending it on badly-needed infrastructure." Not entirely true. Labour campaigned on taking away the $40 per week bribe. Which is more valuable to Labours demographic, yet the masses didnt buy into the bribe. They recognised the continual underfunding and took that option. When there has been so much underfunding, thats a tough catchup, and it will take time.

Immigration I agree, that was a dumb policy. Some immigration needs to be reigned in, and use other sectors to use immigration as a tool to get work done.

I commute along a basic road in West Auckland that is already bumper to bumper at 630am. There are 6,000 houses going in between where I live and Westgate, regardless of when/if the Light Rail we supposedly badly need comes along. It was important enough to campaign on.

As for the $40 per week bribe - they upped WFFTC and the baby bonus that everyone gets regardless of if they actually need it. As a taxpayer with a student loan, I lost my tax cut and still have to pay back my loan, while underwriting free education for all first years, again, regardless of whether they actually need it. And that's before the ridiculous farce of having to up the Kiwibuild prices because they campaigned using out of date costing figures while shouting down anyone who questioned how they were going to deliver it.

As for the underfunding; until they do start spending up like they promised, they're going to keep falling behind of they don't do anything to address the immigration side of things. That might buy us some time; it would at least stop us from going backwards as fast as we have been for the last 15 years.

I'm less inclined to cut them slack because they spent long enough in opposition and decrying every little thing that National did that they should have had their own policies ready to go on day one. No one seems particularly fussed about calling them out on their policy backflips other than Garner and Hosking, who are both pretty easily dismissed. Everyone else seems to be playing the 'look the other way' game.

You say that there are 15 years of underfunding, but you want everything done in short order? I wouldn't say they decried everything National did (although thats what Oppositions do, and the latest one is no exception) but National didnt do a lot, kept spending in check, boasted about surpluses. Now, there is a LOT to catchup on, let alone manage from here. Whoever is in Govt, now has to manage annual spending, and have a plan to keep pace with our infrastructure needs, AND to catchup the last 15 years. That is a massive undertaking. I mentioned transport here recently, referring to the AKL transport catchup levy aka the FUEL TAX, and out popped posters talking about this area needs it, that area needs it. We are woefully behind transport, and thats not a quick fix, unless we borrow borrow borrow. That in itself is not a bad idea. If you or I have badly needed work needing doing to our home, we can dribble on year after year, or we can bite the bullet and get it all fixed, and keep up from now on. A sound idea. But, the impending and possible GFC makes that a hard call.

In conclusion its now not easy. The so called Fuel Tax has been one way to push on. Money is not unlimited. At least this Govt is pro active, mistakes or not. Thats why I did not vote National last time. I can also bank money while my house falls into disrepair, and tell everyone my bank account is looking great so therefore I have good financial management. That will reach an end point, which for NZ, is now

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#2141881 9-Dec-2018 09:46

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12172869

You know when you have your cheerleaders criticising you, that you aren't doing what you are supposed to be.

GV27

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#2141890 9-Dec-2018 09:57

tdgeek:

You say that there are 15 years of underfunding, but you want everything done in short order? I wouldn't say they decried everything National did (although thats what Oppositions do, and the latest one is no exception) but National didnt do a lot, kept spending in check, boasted about surpluses. Now, there is a LOT to catchup on, let alone manage from here. Whoever is in Govt, now has to manage annual spending, and have a plan to keep pace with our infrastructure needs, AND to catchup the last 15 years. That is a massive undertaking. I mentioned transport here recently, referring to the AKL transport catchup levy aka the FUEL TAX, and out popped posters talking about this area needs it, that area needs it. We are woefully behind transport, and thats not a quick fix, unless we borrow borrow borrow. That in itself is not a bad idea. If you or I have badly needed work needing doing to our home, we can dribble on year after year, or we can bite the bullet and get it all fixed, and keep up from now on. A sound idea. But, the impending and possible GFC makes that a hard call.

In conclusion its now not easy. The so called Fuel Tax has been one way to push on. Money is not unlimited. At least this Govt is pro active, mistakes or not. Thats why I did not vote National last time. I can also bank money while my house falls into disrepair, and tell everyone my bank account is looking great so therefore I have good financial management. That will reach an end point, which for NZ, is now

The Government was proactive about passing the fuel tax. It's not quite so proactive about the big ticket items it campaigned on.

I agree with the fuel tax. The problem is I am paying it now. It is definitely real. The extra few thousand houses going up the road. The discussions or a project, time frames or even consultation for the rapid transit network that the area already needs are not real. They aren't happening. Sorry, but it's not too much to ask the Government to communicate effectively about infrastructure they chastised the Govt of the day for not providing. If it was so urgent over a year ago, by the same logic the total silence since should be inexcusable.

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#2141985 9-Dec-2018 12:55

"The Auckland Transport Alignment Project (ATAP) has committed to providing light rail between the City Centre and Māngere and to Auckland’s northwest within the next ten years (2018-2028). The NZ Transport Agency is leading the development of a business case for the City Centre to Māngere line with the support of our partners Auckland Council (AC), Auckland Transport (AT), and HLC."

Timeframes, discussion framework, its all there https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/rapid-transit/auckland-light-rail/

Housing, thats happening, its often in the news, no, the stupid 100k target wont be met. Its better than nothing though

Unsure where the total silence comes from?

Its a year in, thats all.

GV27

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#2141988 9-Dec-2018 13:04

tdgeek:

"The Auckland Transport Alignment Project (ATAP) has committed to providing light rail between the City Centre and Māngere and to Auckland’s northwest within the next ten years (2018-2028). The NZ Transport Agency is leading the development of a business case for the City Centre to Māngere line with the support of our partners Auckland Council (AC), Auckland Transport (AT), and HLC."

Timeframes, discussion framework, its all there https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/rapid-transit/auckland-light-rail/

Housing, thats happening, its often in the news, no, the stupid 100k target wont be met. Its better than nothing though

Unsure where the total silence comes from?

Its a year in, thats all.

The only mention of the Northwest in there is 'within ten years'. All ATAP does is break transport priorities up by decades. National had an ATAP agreement as well, it just had different stuff in it. Again, there's no real advance on this. I'm not the only one saying this; Greater Auckland has been slating NZTA about their silence on the Mangere LRT until recently as well; and even then all they could muster was a single column in the Herald responding to pro-Heavy Rail falsehoods being allowed to be propagated by virtue of their poor communication.

Merely being mentioned in ATAP also doesn't give you a time frame, just a deadline in ten year's time. In between now and then, there's a definite construction date for an extra 6,000 houses in the Westgate precinct. Not vague 'ten year shopping lists'; earthworks are happening now. The traffic is there now. The fuel tax is there now. Those aren't waiting for some vague time between now and 2028.

As for 'It's a year in'; it's almost halfway through a three year term. How long until we get more of a firm plan than 'before 2028'?

E: This isn't about points-scoring, I live in the area and I know how badly it's needed, I just really want to see it get built. Consenting will take a year. It'll take at least three years to actually build. And that's only after you design it and issue the spec. They're currently still deciding the route. There isn't a lot of fat left before 2028 and that's why I've taken such an interest in this.

tdgeek

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#2141991 9-Dec-2018 13:19

GV27:

tdgeek:

"The Auckland Transport Alignment Project (ATAP) has committed to providing light rail between the City Centre and Māngere and to Auckland’s northwest within the next ten years (2018-2028). The NZ Transport Agency is leading the development of a business case for the City Centre to Māngere line with the support of our partners Auckland Council (AC), Auckland Transport (AT), and HLC."

Timeframes, discussion framework, its all there https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/rapid-transit/auckland-light-rail/

Housing, thats happening, its often in the news, no, the stupid 100k target wont be met. Its better than nothing though

Unsure where the total silence comes from?

Its a year in, thats all.

The only mention of the Northwest in there is 'within ten years'. All ATAP does is break transport priorities up by decades. National had an ATAP agreement as well, it just had different stuff in it. Again, there's no real advance on this. I'm not the only one saying this; Greater Auckland has been slating NZTA about their silence on the Mangere LRT until recently as well; and even then all they could muster was a single column in the Herald responding to pro-Heavy Rail falsehoods being allowed to be propagated by virtue of their poor communication.

Merely being mentioned in ATAP also doesn't give you a time frame, just a deadline in ten year's time. In between now and then, there's a definite construction date for an extra 6,000 houses in the Westgate precinct. Not vague 'ten year shopping lists'; earthworks are happening now. The traffic is there now. The fuel tax is there now. Those aren't waiting for some vague time between now and 2028.

As for 'It's a year in'; it's almost halfway through a three year term. How long until we get more of a firm plan than 'before 2028'?

https://www.labour.org.nz/aucklandtransport

Is the transport policy, what is new, and what has been accelerated. Its all a long term plan, although Labour will accelerate what was already planned, and adds new. Where did the planning get to in recent years? The reason this policy exists is because it didnt happen. Im not sure how long planning should take. Much of this work is linked, either physically or as the overall transport strategy. Im not sure how much you expect to happen or when, but its clear the planning isnt complete. I doubt that the policy was formulated and no one has since started to work on it. The previous link says that is in progress. Surely you didnt expect diggers to be rolling out in months or lets start now, plan as we go?

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#2141992 9-Dec-2018 13:22

GV27:

E: This isn't about points-scoring, I live in the area and I know how badly it's needed, I just really want to see it get built. Consenting will take a year. It'll take at least three years to actually build. And that's only after you design it and issue the spec. They're currently still deciding the route. There isn't a lot of fat left before 2028 and that's why I've taken such an interest in this.

Fully understand that. I wonder what is the best process to get some harder detail? Ring your MP? Or NZTA to ask where things are at? Its a very good question.

Hopefully if you ring the Labour MP in your area, they must be able to get a progress report?

GV27

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#2141993 9-Dec-2018 13:26

tdgeek:

GV27:

E: This isn't about points-scoring, I live in the area and I know how badly it's needed, I just really want to see it get built. Consenting will take a year. It'll take at least three years to actually build. And that's only after you design it and issue the spec. They're currently still deciding the route. There isn't a lot of fat left before 2028 and that's why I've taken such an interest in this.

Fully understand that. I wonder what is the best process to get some harder detail? Ring your MP? Or NZTA to ask where things are at? Its a very good question.

Hopefully if you ring the Labour MP in your area, they must be able to get a progress report?

My local Labour MP is Twyford, I suspect he has a bit on atm.

It does speak to a broader issue though in Auckland; the length of time it takes to deliver massive projects. Waterview ran over. The CRL is going to take seven years to deliver. Hell, the roadworks on Te Atatu Road went on for two years. It seems other countries can do things much quicker; which is concerning when we're as behind as we are.

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#2142387 10-Dec-2018 11:28

tdgeek:

In conclusion its now not easy. The so called Fuel Tax has been one way to push on. Money is not unlimited. At least this Govt is pro active, mistakes or not. Thats why I did not vote National last time. I can also bank money while my house falls into disrepair, and tell everyone my bank account is looking great so therefore I have good financial management. That will reach an end point, which for NZ, is now

I'm not going to make an argument against the point's you've made, but I did just want to call out that I think your analogy (bolded) is a bit off.

Here's my version :-)

Your "ex" ticked-up a number of very expensive presents for your children before you separated. Such expensive gifts that the repayments on them (along with your other regular bills) exceeded your income. You saw a financial planner who estimated that it could be up to 10yrs before you would be earning enough to cover your outgoings. So, unwilling to take those presents back off your children who were thoroughly enjoying them, you extended your mortgage and set to work getting things back on track.

Over the next 7 years, you refused to defer essential maintenance on your house, making sure that it did not fall into disrepair - despite significant rebuilding being needed after a natural disaster, and despite your children growing and grumbling about wanting more space for themselves. Over this time, you continued to extend your mortgage as prudently as your could to ensure that everyone and everything was cared for as best you were able.

Finally, after 7 years of restraint, you reached a point where you were no longer spending more than you were earning. Your mortgage was bigger than it had ever been, but finally you we're able to begin paying it down again.

Unfortunately, your spoiled children now see you earning all this money and are upset that after long years of "neglect" they still have to share bedrooms, and queue for the bathroom in the morning. They grow increasingly impatient and disenfranchised.

After another couple of years, they decide that they've had enough, and go back to your "ex".

The ex takes the house, the kids and the growing income streams, and starts making more lavish promises for the children. A billion trees for the garden, 100,000 bedrooms for the house, Free University for all the kids. And speaks endlessly to anyone who will listen about how badly you neglected things for nine years.

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#2142389 10-Dec-2018 11:35

Nice. That's really well put!

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#2142391 10-Dec-2018 11:38

6FIEND:

+1 for your excellent example. However, your interpretation is wrong. It incorrectly assumes that the ex cares more for the welfare of the children than defeating her spouse.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2142392 10-Dec-2018 11:41

Rikkitic:

6FIEND:

+1 for your excellent example. However, your interpretation is wrong. It incorrectly assumes that the ex cares more for the welfare of the children than defeating her spouse.

I see it more a case of the ex doing promising anything so she could have custody of the kids, regardless of how said ex won't be able to deliver on those big promises.

tdgeek

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#2142395 10-Dec-2018 11:46

6FIEND:

tdgeek:

In conclusion its now not easy. The so called Fuel Tax has been one way to push on. Money is not unlimited. At least this Govt is pro active, mistakes or not. Thats why I did not vote National last time. I can also bank money while my house falls into disrepair, and tell everyone my bank account is looking great so therefore I have good financial management. That will reach an end point, which for NZ, is now

I'm not going to make an argument against the point's you've made, but I did just want to call out that I think your analogy (bolded) is a bit off.

Here's my version :-)

Your "ex" ticked-up a number of very expensive presents for your children before you separated. Such expensive gifts that the repayments on them (along with your other regular bills) exceeded your income. You saw a financial planner who estimated that it could be up to 10yrs before you would be earning enough to cover your outgoings. So, unwilling to take those presents back off your children who were thoroughly enjoying them, you extended your mortgage and set to work getting things back on track.

Over the next 7 years, you refused to defer essential maintenance on your house, making sure that it did not fall into disrepair - despite significant rebuilding being needed after a natural disaster, and despite your children growing and grumbling about wanting more space for themselves. Over this time, you continued to extend your mortgage as prudently as your could to ensure that everyone and everything was cared for as best you were able.

Finally, after 7 years of restraint, you reached a point where you were no longer spending more than you were earning. Your mortgage was bigger than it had ever been, but finally you we're able to begin paying it down again.

Unfortunately, your spoiled children now see you earning all this money and are upset that after long years of "neglect" they still have to share bedrooms, and queue for the bathroom in the morning. They grow increasingly impatient and disenfranchised.

After another couple of years, they decide that they've had enough, and go back to your "ex".

The ex takes the house, the kids and the growing income streams, and starts making more lavish promises for the children. A billion trees for the garden, 100,000 bedrooms for the house, Free University for all the kids. And speaks endlessly to anyone who will listen about how badly you neglected things for nine years.

Nice one, and very well put together. I do blame National for the transport situation, and also and equally Helen Clarke. That's 18 years where for Clarke, planning and work should have taken place, and for Key, where work should have taken place, even if is just what we need now, plus more to get back on track. While we can fall back on disasters, thats becoming a bit old. We were getting regular and solid surpluses, and we were about to get $2000 free annual bonus for all wage and salary earners. That's not right IMHO. Transport and roads are a boring policy, not vote worthy, but that is the price we are paying now.The lavish promises are not lavish. The first two wont be reached, and the trees, well any tress will help, as will any houses. The University issue, I doubt kids will use that to fill in a year or so, and in any case its not a high cost. The same issue arise with health and education, these issues have all reached a tipping point

Labour will be hammered for not fixing them in 5 minutes, however no one can, it will be a long and steady road, excuse the pun

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