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#2142398 10-Dec-2018 11:51

networkn:

Rikkitic:

6FIEND:

+1 for your excellent example. However, your interpretation is wrong. It incorrectly assumes that the ex cares more for the welfare of the children than defeating her spouse.

I see it more a case of the ex doing promising anything so she could have custody of the kids, regardless of how said ex won't be able to deliver on those big promises.

Not delivering? Im not sure if you are referring to National or Labour..... It applies to National so that's sorted, Labour is TBA. Trees and houses wont be delivered as promised we all know that and agree on that. Roads are what we are discussing. If Labour is to be hammered for not delivering the transport promise, that has yet to be realised.

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#2142409 10-Dec-2018 12:12

I am just assuming here, but I think that the bulk of the concern re Labour's roading plans are that they cancelled most of the initiatives that were in-flight when they took office, and haven't yet set out any meaningful alternative. They've spoken at length about light-rail down Dominion Rd, and passenger rail between Auckland & Hamilton, but not issues much beyond that. (At least not that I've seen, though to be fair - I haven't been paying close attention)

And, as previously mentioned, roading projects in this country take an inordinately long time. (On a small, local scale, I've seen a road repair involving eight 10x20ft "patches" take more than 3 weeks to complete. And the installation of two raised pedestrian crossings take over a month!) The implication here is that if any political party wants runs on the board for a roading initiative at the next election, then need to have it ready to go as soon as they take over the treasury benches.

I credit Clark's govt for the Waterview Tunnel, and I appreciate Key's government for delivering on it. I believe that we need more cross-party support for transport initiatives, or else we'll keep kicking the can down the road, changing tack every 3yrs until eventually we can't move. (Unfortunately, it feels like we're 90% there already)

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#2142416 10-Dec-2018 12:21

6FIEND:

I am just assuming here, but I think that the bulk of the concern re Labour's roading plans are that they cancelled most of the initiatives that were in-flight when they took office, and haven't yet set out any meaningful alternative. They've spoken at length about light-rail down Dominion Rd, and passenger rail between Auckland & Hamilton, but not issues much beyond that. (At least not that I've seen, though to be fair - I haven't been paying close attention)

And, as previously mentioned, roading projects in this country take an inordinately long time. (On a small, local scale, I've seen a road repair involving eight 10x20ft "patches" take more than 3 weeks to complete. And the installation of two raised pedestrian crossings take over a month!) The implication here is that if any political party wants runs on the board for a roading initiative at the next election, then need to have it ready to go as soon as they take over the treasury benches.

I credit Clark's govt for the Waterview Tunnel, and I appreciate Key's government for delivering on it. I believe that we need more cross-party support for transport initiatives, or else we'll keep kicking the can down the road, changing tack every 3yrs until eventually we can't move. (Unfortunately, it feels like we're 90% there already)

I agree. I feel their policy is clear, and it covers a lot https://www.labour.org.nz/transport

Someone also mentioned the other day that it takes so long to build roads compared to elsewhere. RMA is probably part of that, how much I don't know. Maybe we are just too slow and deliberate and not efficient?

AKL wise the whole deal needs to be planned, rather than each section, its one big part. But maybe we need to pass laws to breach any issues that are just time delays, and wasting time. Its important to be thorough but how much time is wasted on bureacracy?

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#2142418 10-Dec-2018 12:25

tdgeek:

Not delivering? Im not sure if you are referring to National or Labour..... It applies to National so that's sorted, Labour is TBA. Trees and houses wont be delivered as promised we all know that and agree on that. Roads are what we are discussing. If Labour is to be hammered for not delivering the transport promise, that has yet to be realised.

Are you having a laugh? You need to ask who it is that isn't delivering? How many broken promises have we had in the FIRST year with Labour? There is a list earlier in this thread (or was in the JA one) of what hasn't happened inside of the 1st year that was said to be delivered on or progress made). This isn't the same as expecting everything to be fixed instantly, it's expecting them to deliver on what THEY have said they can and will in the time frames THEY set.

National largely delivered on what they promised, there will always be *some* misses and National had to deal with GFC, and multiple natural disasters which you seem very keen to minimize which makes no sense whatsoever to me). Even if there was no absolute cost to those, it required the Government ministers to be spending time on them, which prevents time being spent on other things. Spreading too thin is how mistakes get made.

You keep going on about the tax cuts, and I don't need them, neither do you and I suspect most of the people here feel the same way. I'd have rather it was spent elsewhere, but it wasn't the ONLY thing National said they would do this term, the promises National made look very similar or better (in my view) than what Labour will actually deliver (vs what they promised).

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#2142466 10-Dec-2018 12:45

networkn:

tdgeek:

Not delivering? Im not sure if you are referring to National or Labour..... It applies to National so that's sorted, Labour is TBA. Trees and houses wont be delivered as promised we all know that and agree on that. Roads are what we are discussing. If Labour is to be hammered for not delivering the transport promise, that has yet to be realised.

Are you having a laugh? You need to ask who it is that isn't delivering? How many broken promises have we had in the FIRST year with Labour? There is a list earlier in this thread (or was in the JA one) of what hasn't happened inside of the 1st year that was said to be delivered on or progress made). This isn't the same as expecting everything to be fixed instantly, it's expecting them to deliver on what THEY have said they can and will in the time frames THEY set.

National largely delivered on what they promised, there will always be *some* misses and National had to deal with GFC, and multiple natural disasters which you seem very keen to minimize which makes no sense whatsoever to me). Even if there was no absolute cost to those, it required the Government ministers to be spending time on them, which prevents time being spent on other things. Spreading too thin is how mistakes get made.

You keep going on about the tax cuts, and I don't need them, neither do you and I suspect most of the people here feel the same way. I'd have rather it was spent elsewhere, but it wasn't the ONLY thing National said they would do this term, the promises National made look very similar or better (in my view) than what Labour will actually deliver (vs what they promised).

Tax cuts based on what else has to be done? Election bribe and no more, a pure waste of money to buy votes. No other explanation. Its about what was not done not what was done The other day a poster talked about what is actually affecting him, qualified that by saying its not point scoring. The transport issues are affecting him. But to qualify that as not point scoring, implies most of the banter here is in fact that, point scoring. Defending the party people support. To the nth degree. To a degree thats fine, at times its quite funny, but if some posts are only about supporting the party that will always be vote for , no matter what, they need to be filtered out

BTW, not having a laugh

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#2142515 10-Dec-2018 14:02

tdgeek:

... Defending the party people support. To the nth degree. To a degree thats fine, at times its quite funny, but if some posts are only about supporting the party that will always be vote for , no matter what, they need to be filtered out

I'm not so sure that that is the case. In fact, the very reason that this forum exists is to provide a place for those posts. (and to ring-fence them from the broader GZ forums) At least that's what's implied by the Forum descriptor:

Please use this forum for any political discussion. You have to agree to disagree. This forum does not appear on Geekzone Live or Geekzone homepage. FUG rules still apply. Disagreements on political views is not a personal attack.

If a member has 100% bias in favour of a political party, that's entirely their business. Just because people may disagree with them on some of their viewpoints (or simply disapprove of the fact that they have aligned them selves to supporting a single party) this is absolutely not grounds for their view being suppressed or filtered out.

Unless, of course, you were meaning an internal, mental filter?

(Or unless things have changed?)

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#2142562 10-Dec-2018 14:26

6FIEND:

tdgeek:

... Defending the party people support. To the nth degree. To a degree thats fine, at times its quite funny, but if some posts are only about supporting the party that will always be vote for , no matter what, they need to be filtered out

I'm not so sure that that is the case. In fact, the very reason that this forum exists is to provide a place for those posts. (and to ring-fence them from the broader GZ forums) At least that's what's implied by the Forum descriptor:

Please use this forum for any political discussion. You have to agree to disagree. This forum does not appear on Geekzone Live or Geekzone homepage. FUG rules still apply. Disagreements on political views is not a personal attack.

If a member has 100% bias in favour of a political party, that's entirely their business. Just because people may disagree with them on some of their viewpoints (or simply disapprove of the fact that they have aligned them selves to supporting a single party) this is absolutely not grounds for their view being suppressed or filtered out.

Unless, of course, you were meaning an internal, mental filter?

(Or unless things have changed?)

You're right

What I mean is bias is fine, it's expected. But when one party is always right, and one is always rubbish, conveniently ignoring facets that balance the topic in hand, its a.bit lame at time'. And the usual one liners. Fuel tax is a good example. On one hand its a TAX, OMG, help, its another Labour tax. But in fact its to get past the past years of lack of investment. Whether that's Akl CC, National, previous Labour before that, its done, we need it fixed, this is one way to do that. But a lot of that will be ignored in favour of the Labour tax bashing, because the forum isnt really about discussing, its about bashing. But hey, that's all good, we can choose to be here and we know what we read is worth discussing or not.

That earlier long post of yours really was classic, well done

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#2142563 10-Dec-2018 14:26

tdgeek:

Someone also mentioned the other day that it takes so long to build roads compared to elsewhere. RMA is probably part of that, how much I don't know. Maybe we are just too slow and deliberate and not efficient?

That might have been me. I'm still appalled that after National dragged their feet on the CRL for so long, Labour have not discussed pushing it through as a matter of urgency. It's going to take us 8 years. It would be three tops anywhere else in the world. We are bad at this.

What's even worse is the Council is now doubling-down on this, and using the America's Cup as an excuse to not even start things like Queen St Light Rail until after the event. How many other badly needed projects will get conveniently put on the back-burner? As a not-so-young young person who has lived here all my life, I'm tired of seeing much-needed change just endlessly deferred. We are very good at adding people and taking their money, but pretty awful at building the city we need to house and employ them all. It makes you wonder why you bother staying.

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#2142573 10-Dec-2018 14:42

I am assuming that a lot of the roads that were cancelled )like the Levin expressway which was already paid for from current fuel taxes and as such wasnt to be commenced until the previous one was completed) so awesome massive projects like Kiwibuild could be implemented. Thats going so well.

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#2142586 10-Dec-2018 14:52

Bluntj:

I am assuming that a lot of the roads that were cancelled )like the Levin expressway which was already paid for from current fuel taxes and as such wasnt to be commenced until the previous one was completed) so awesome massive projects like Kiwibuild could be implemented. Thats going so well.

"Thats going so well." is definitive, its a fact. Can you confirm that? Its one thing to disagree, its another to conveniently assume something harsh and pass it off as a fact

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#2142592 10-Dec-2018 14:59

tdgeek:

Bluntj:

I am assuming that a lot of the roads that were cancelled )like the Levin expressway which was already paid for from current fuel taxes and as such wasnt to be commenced until the previous one was completed) so awesome massive projects like Kiwibuild could be implemented. Thats going so well.

"Thats going so well." is definitive, its a fact. Can you confirm that? Its one thing to disagree, its another to conveniently assume something harsh and pass it off as a fact

He was being sarcastic. I am pretty sure you are familiar with the mechanism. It's a train wreck.

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#2142606 10-Dec-2018 15:19

networkn:

tdgeek:

Bluntj:

I am assuming that a lot of the roads that were cancelled )like the Levin expressway which was already paid for from current fuel taxes and as such wasnt to be commenced until the previous one was completed) so awesome massive projects like Kiwibuild could be implemented. Thats going so well.

"Thats going so well." is definitive, its a fact. Can you confirm that? Its one thing to disagree, its another to conveniently assume something harsh and pass it off as a fact

He was being sarcastic. I am pretty sure you are familiar with the mechanism. It's a train wreck.

I am, and I was ticked off by someone here for not adding the /S to indicate that. This post is quite common, using an assumption passed off as a fact. That is a train wreck. It would be great to have real discussion here, more often. Which does happen from time to time by opposing posters. Its not all about bashing, there are many facets involved rather than one party is super, the other is rubbish

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#2142666 10-Dec-2018 17:06

tdgeek:

I am, and I was ticked off by someone here for not adding the /S to indicate that. This post is quite common, using an assumption passed off as a fact. That is a train wreck. It would be great to have real discussion here, more often. Which does happen from time to time by opposing posters. Its not all about bashing, there are many facets involved rather than one party is super, the other is rubbish

The problem is that the moment someone is even *mildly* critical of the current government, it's "biased" or "a right wing echo chamber".

It's entirely fair and reasonable to be critical when someone doesn't do their job properly.

It is NOT an assumption that Kiwibuild to this point, is a trainwreck, there is plenty to point to that, from the numbers claimed of houses that would be built, to the stupidly high income thresholds, to the prices increasing, to the low number of people who have actually applied let alone gone near it, to the language used by the Minister that got tsk tsked by his boss, to the CEO resigning after only 5 months, (I am trying to find the article that mentioned that Labour had bought (not built) a group of properties in central Auckland, and are selling them at a loss to meet the agreed increased price) and on and on and on. There are plenty of "facts" to support this, simply pick up a news paper or open a news website, or google Kiwibuild. How much "evidence" would you like?

In my view it's just a matter of time till more comes out about the mismanagement of this from Twyford and he is removed from this project. Seems inevitable to me that Shane Jones will end up in hot water over the spending of the regional fund, either misspending he had no direct knowledge of but oversaw, or poor return on what is spent. I expect some of this to be fairly large sums of misspent or wasted money.

In my view, Labour should have underpromised on 1 or 2 big policies and absolutely nailed them.

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#2142673 10-Dec-2018 17:16

Both NZTA and Kiwibuild CEO's have resigned......is there a pattern here?

I think the axe needs to go higher.

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#2142678 10-Dec-2018 17:21

tdgeek:

Tax cuts based on what else has to be done? Election bribe and no more, a pure waste of money to buy votes. No other explanation. Its about what was not done not what was done The other day a poster talked about what is actually affecting him, qualified that by saying its not point scoring. The transport issues are affecting him. But to qualify that as not point scoring, implies most of the banter here is in fact that, point scoring. Defending the party people support. To the nth degree. To a degree thats fine, at times its quite funny, but if some posts are only about supporting the party that will always be vote for , no matter what, they need to be filtered out

BTW, not having a laugh

I haven't analyzed this, however, I do wonder what the cost of the family rescue packages Labour has put together, including a entirely non targeted heating rebate (as in my in laws got it and they don't even remotely need it), cost Taxpayers vs what the tax cuts would have saved. The Tax cuts would have ended up back in the economy anyway.

If you take the OTHER policies National promised, and compare those to what Labour will ACTUALLY deliver (vs their promised amounts), how much difference do you think there would be? Healthcare spending looks pretty similar... Education spending isn't possible to determine to date because we don't know what that will cost yet, but it's at least somewhat unlikely that we would be having strikes under National.

My ongoing frustration with Labour is the way they deliver policies. There is *no* excuse for non targeted heating rebates. It could have been done on application only, meaning you had to apply to get it, and this would have saved how much money? All those people who didn't need it ? Same with the education policies. They could have made the free years education for the *last* year only.

I am not sure I entirely agree that the tax cuts were an election bribe. It certainly wasn't a factor in my voting decision. The people it likely would have swayed were the people who could have used the money the most any way.

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