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5869 posts

Uber Geek

#2219914 17-Apr-2019 14:46

tdgeek:

Learned nothing? You have assumed why they chose this, then concluded based on that. The report favoured in 7 to 10, 3 of the 10 had concerns. Seems fair to me, I just feel her reasoning was weak, based on votes. Its either a good idea or its not. The report shows it is and it isnt in parts.. Just say its no good, not that Kiwis dont like it (and wont vote for me)

She hasn't come out and said it was rejected on merit, she's said it was because there was no consensus.

The three of the ten who had concerns were actual tax and legal professionals, as opposed to unionists and academics, or economists.

Who knows? Maybe if the TWG wasn't seen as a fait accompli with a pre-determined outcome and chaired by Cullen, and if it had prepared a more workable proposal, then we may have seen consensus, or Kiwis may have bought in to it.

Just blaming voters for not wanting it and thinking about the reasons why there might be is where we'll miss out on the value of having gone through this whole exercise.

But that involves coming up with an actual, workable solution, not just a politically expedient one.

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tdgeek

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#2219916 17-Apr-2019 14:47

Rikkitic:

I think there should be CGT. It doesn't make sense to me that there isn't. But I understand why people are opposed when everyone in this country sees property investment/inflation as the way to get rich. I guess that will continue.

I am ok with it, but its too hard, too many variables, plus to me, the payback was a long way off and when we have a recession of GFC, its all gone (albeit temporarily) And its not inflation adjusted, so you tax "non-income" but based on the number it is taxed

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#2219921 17-Apr-2019 14:52

GV27:

She hasn't come out and said it was rejected on merit, she's said it was because there was no consensus.

The three of the ten who had concerns were actual tax and legal professionals, as opposed to unionists and academics, or economists.

Who knows? Maybe if the TWG wasn't seen as a fait accompli with a pre-determined outcome and chaired by Cullen, and if it had prepared a more workable proposal, then we may have seen consensus, or Kiwis may have bought in to it.

Just blaming voters for not wanting it and thinking about the reasons why there might be is where we'll miss out on the value of having gone through this whole exercise.

But that involves coming up with an actual, workable solution, not just a politically expedient one.

I agree re merit and consensus. There wasn't a consensus. It wasnt really a fait accompli, it achieved only 70% consensus within the group. The good from this is some tax issues have been highlighted, and CGT will not happen in the very long forseeable future. Other means to level the playing field can occur

GV27

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Uber Geek

#2219962 17-Apr-2019 15:02

I think putting Cullen in charge of that group doomed it from day dot, regardless of whatever it recommended. Once you start throwing academics and trade unionists onto tax reform bodies, you start looking like you're shopping for outcomes by design. Yes, you might get consensus on a very carefully selected panel, but you can't be surprised when the rest of NZ doesn't buy what you're selling.

tdgeek

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#2219964 17-Apr-2019 15:06

GV27:

I think putting Cullen in charge of that group doomed it from day dot, regardless of whatever it recommended. Once you start throwing academics and trade unionists onto tax reform bodies, you start looking like you're shopping for outcomes by design. Yes, you might get consensus on a very carefully selected panel, but you can't be surprised when the rest of NZ doesn't buy what you're selling.

You mean doesn't want their tax free gains to be taxed

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#2219970 17-Apr-2019 15:15

If any party created a WG, would they be totally equal and fairly represented? Its typical human behaviour, we just need to ensure they act as impartially as they can and 7:3 shows that as does the sidelining of it. If Peters said they always will veto it, there is no point in having a WG, its just buying a guaranteed problem. Its been aired, thats what matters

ockel

2031 posts

Uber Geek

#2219977 17-Apr-2019 15:23

GV27:

[

She hasn't come out and said it was rejected on merit, she's said it was because there was no consensus.

The three of the ten who had concerns were actual tax and legal professionals, as opposed to unionists and academics, or economists.

Who knows? Maybe if the TWG wasn't seen as a fait accompli with a pre-determined outcome and chaired by Cullen, and if it had prepared a more workable proposal, then we may have seen consensus, or Kiwis may have bought in to it.

Just blaming voters for not wanting it and thinking about the reasons why there might be is where we'll miss out on the value of having gone through this whole exercise.

But that involves coming up with an actual, workable solution, not just a politically expedient one.

It wasnt rejected due to the lack of consensus in the TWG. It was the lack of political party consensus.

“All parties in the government entered into this debate with different perspectives and, after significant discussion, we have ultimately been unable to find a consensus. As a result, we will not be introducing a capital gains tax."

We know that the Greens wanted it (desperately) and the Labour was keen.

It was a captains call before the last election not to have it as policy. Its a captains call not to introduce policy now. Its just a different captain - its the co-Prime Ministers call this time around.

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GV27

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#2219984 17-Apr-2019 15:32

ockel:

It wasnt rejected due to the lack of consensus in the TWG. It was the lack of political party consensus.

I never said it was?

Bluntj

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#2220061 17-Apr-2019 16:56

Absolute waste of money this has been. Labour knew Winston would scuttle it from the get go. When you get into bed with a snake you expect to be bitten.

Most of these expensive reviews are going no where..eg CGT, Petrol companies, Electricity sector. It is so wrong to see so many millions go down the toilet.

Rikkitic

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#2220067 17-Apr-2019 17:23

Yeah, a real shame, that flag referendum.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

dwilson

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#2220068 17-Apr-2019 17:33

Bluntj:

Absolute waste of money this has been. Labour knew Winston would scuttle it from the get go. When you get into bed with a snake you expect to be bitten.

Most of these expensive reviews are going no where..eg CGT, Petrol companies, Electricity sector. It is so wrong to see so many millions go down the toilet.

... and the moral of the story? Don't try.

tdgeek

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#2220104 17-Apr-2019 18:43

Bluntj:

Absolute waste of money this has been. Labour knew Winston would scuttle it from the get go. When you get into bed with a snake you expect to be bitten.

Most of these expensive reviews are going no where..eg CGT, Petrol companies, Electricity sector. It is so wrong to see so many millions go down the toilet.

You don't believe in democracy? Was it a waste of money? In retrospect yes. Or would you prefer a dictatorship to force what they want? We spent 26 million on a flag debate. When those that didnt want a new flag, succeeded, it was thus a waste of money. If we got a new flag its wrong and a waste of money. Many need to look at whatever the issue is maturely and discuss. This is a politics thread, no one expects to sway anyone to change sides, we just want to discuss. But if it always ends up as A vs B and lets dispense with real discussion, then its a waste of ink.

tdgeek

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#2220107 17-Apr-2019 18:45

Rikkitic:

Yeah, a real shame, that flag referendum.

No it wasnt. I wanted a change, to reflect modern NZ not UK NZ. It failed, im not bothered, it was a question that needed to eh asked, and it was. Democracy.

Rikkitic

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#2220119 17-Apr-2019 19:01

Your irony detector needs adjusting. I was just pointing out what you did, that democracy has a price tag. I would have also liked to cut the suspenders to dear old mother England though I do think the money 'wasted' on CGT was less wasteful than that on the flag.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

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#2220121 17-Apr-2019 19:03

This backs up what I said. Not that I agree, but there it is

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112099644/cgt-captains-call-by-jacinda-ardern-is-cynical-political-and-extremely-smart

I guess the moral is if you can't win, you cant govern. Lets assume for a minute that CGT was AWESOME. (Not saying it is) But it will lose votes. So forget it. Thats the mantra of politics, thats why we say "its got political" Because the value of any issue is secondary to its vote catcher appeal. While I dont advocate a dictatorship, if you had a dictator that was GREAT, thats actually a better solution.

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