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131 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 2093688 20-Sep-2018 10:53
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Fred99:

Reciprocity:
But this thread is (loosely) about Brash - I was referring to your stated strong belief that he is wrong to oppose affirmative action.


That's not actually what I said there:


My comment was based on opposition to Brash's usual argument that "affirmative action" isn't needed, as in his opinion "equality under the law" either had or would - without anything else needed - achieve social/economic equality. I strongly believe he's wrong. I do believe that statistics support me there.


Equality of opportunity and equality of outcome aren't automatically conflicting - especially so as I doubt you'd get consensus on how they're defined / what they really mean.  



You’re right - I misread your post. I’ve never heard Brash claim that equal outcomes would be achieved by having “one law for all”, So I guess I skipped over that part of your comment. Sorry, my bad.

I struggle to see how the two equalities are not automatically conflicting. (Especially when government is concerned). The Government can’t give anything to an individual or group that it hasn’t first taken away from someone else. Can you show me what you mean?

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2093689 20-Sep-2018 10:53
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Rikkitic:

 

6FIEND:

 

None of those people are still sitting around claiming that they can never be successful until past wrongs are remedied.  They are simply getting on with being successful.

 

 

This doesn't even make any sense. It is completely over the top.

 

 

 

 

It especially doesn't make sense when you consider that there was a massive global effort to right the wrongs of the holocaust, to rebuild Japan etc.


Glurp
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  Reply # 2093690 20-Sep-2018 11:00
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Reciprocity: @Rikkitic How dare you assume to know the shoes I’ve walked in!

I was raised in one of the most impoverished areas of the country. My father worked himself into an early grave just to ensure that we were clothed and fed and he made damn sure that we learned the value of education and self-reliance.

Take your allegations of racism and go fly a kite...
Either that, or show me any single example of a lack of equality of opportunity and I will go and fight it together with you.

 

Good on you for having made the most of your opportunities. But it still doesn't qualify you to pass judgement on others. Racism is real whether you think so or not.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 2093693 20-Sep-2018 11:03
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Reciprocity: 

I struggle to see how the two equalities are not automatically conflicting. (Especially when government is concerned). The Government can’t give anything to an individual or group that it hasn’t first taken away from someone else. Can you show me what you mean?

 

What?

 

Governments redistribute wealth - it's what they do.  Except on the mythical Ayn Rand Island.

 

For example, taking taxes and using the money for common/public good - for example to provide universal access to education or healthcare.  How is that not simultaneously both increasing equality of opportunity, and increasing equality of outcomes?


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2093709 20-Sep-2018 11:19
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Fred99:

 

Rikkitic:

 

6FIEND:

 

None of those people are still sitting around claiming that they can never be successful until past wrongs are remedied.  They are simply getting on with being successful.

 

 

This doesn't even make any sense. It is completely over the top.

 

 

 

 

It especially doesn't make sense when you consider that there was a massive global effort to right the wrongs of the holocaust, to rebuild Japan etc.

 

 

Google:

 

Between 1946 and 1952, Washington invested $2.2 billion — or $18 billion in real 21st-century dollars adjusted for inflation — in Japan's reconstruction effort. 

 

Treaty Settlements  currently sit at $2.2bn. (2018 dollars)  Te Puni Kokiri, Whanau Ora, and other initiatives to improve outcomes for Maori have all cumulatively accounted for billions more in crown spending.

 

And that's not even accounting for the false equivalency of colonisation vs. nuclear bombs.

 

Yet Japanese today don't claim that they're unable to be successful because of what happened to their great grandparents.


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2093710 20-Sep-2018 11:22
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Fred99:

How is that not simultaneously both increasing equality of opportunity, and increasing equality of outcomes?



For a start, it reduces the opportunity of the person who is taxed from affording to pay for private healthcare or education.



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  Reply # 2093713 20-Sep-2018 11:31
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6FIEND:

 

Many diverse ethnicities have suffered unthinkable atrocities over the past 150 years:

 

- 20 million Russians were killed under Stalin's rule

 

- 6 million Jews were slaughtered in the Holocaust

 

- The Japanese had nuclear bombs detonated in two of their major cities killing more than 200,000 (directly)

 

I could go on...

 

 

 

None of those people are still sitting around claiming that they can never be successful until past wrongs are remedied.  They are simply getting on with being successful.

 

 

If you look at some of the social problems in Scotland you will see a country that has never really recovered from the atrocities of the 18th century.  You will see a number of similar social problems to his disproportionately experienced by Maori in NZ.  Not surprising as they have the same root cause - loss of land, suppression of 'rebellion' etc etc.  

 

I think the problem is pretty clear and it's not racism - racism is more a symptom of economic-inequity than a cause.  As someone else said a big factor is a lack of intergenerational wealth.

 

If you look at the British longitudinal study on life outcomes, which has been following a cohort of kids for 70+ years, the message is pretty clear.  The single biggest determinant of how you life will go (health, wealth, employment, addiction, crime) is how wealthy your parents are when you are born.  The gap between rich kids and poor kids cna be breidged by education only in about 30% of cases. I gleaned these conclusions from this TED talk: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwik9rDpm8jdAhXKad4KHdXrBX0QtwIwAHoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Ftalks%2Fhelen_pearson_lessons_from_the_longest_study_on_human_development%2Ffootnotes&usg=AOvVaw1b7pR9-xKGEN6GR9I0piKF

 

I suspect none of this will surprise anyone.  The depressing aspect is you need to improve the lives of poor parents, before they become parents if you are to make a dent in the prospects of their kids.  And if you understand epigenetics , even that may not be enough. 

 

The question is what to do?  The answer is elusive.  Govts worldwide have failed to address inequity.

 

As a simple NZ example of this consider the smoking rates of Maori women.  Govt has thrown resources at this and can't make a dent. 





Mike

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  Reply # 2093724 20-Sep-2018 11:33
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6FIEND:

 

 

 

Treaty Settlements  currently sit at $2.2bn. (2018 dollars)  Te Puni Kokiri, Whanau Ora, and other initiatives to improve outcomes for Maori have all cumulatively accounted for billions more in crown spending.

 

And that's not even accounting for the false equivalency of colonisation vs. nuclear bombs.

 

Yet Japanese today don't claim that they're unable to be successful because of what happened to their great grandparents.

 

 

 

 

So in your world everything here is tickety-boo and the indiginous peoples of Aotearoa should just get on with it as all the bad things have been fixed. Its all their fault now. You have an odd view of reality and I am going to leave you with your ideas.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


698 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2093741 20-Sep-2018 11:59
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MikeB4:

 

So in your world everything here is tickety-boo -NO- and the indiginous peoples of Aotearoa should just get on with it -YES- as all the bad things have been fixed -NO-. Its all their fault now -NO-. You have an odd view of reality and I am going to leave you with your ideas.

 

 

Your summary tends to suggest that you've misunderstood me.

 

My idea is:

 

     

  1. You can't change the past
  2. You can't change the present-state
  3. You can only change your behaviour in-the-present to influence the future.

 

And I believe that any gameplan that involves requiring redress for crimes or iniquities committed against persons long dead before focusing on the future, is a losing proposition of diminishing value.

 

 


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  Reply # 2093749 20-Sep-2018 12:13
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Reciprocity:
Fred99:

 

How is that not simultaneously both increasing equality of opportunity, and increasing equality of outcomes?

 



For a start, it reduces the opportunity of the person who is taxed from affording to pay for private healthcare or education.

 

And simultaneously increases the opportunity of the person who is being taxed to live in a society from which they profit, a society relatively free from poverty and ignorance that would otherwise be the case - and would thus limit opportunities for all, including the ceaselessly bleating privileged few.

 

I'm really not interested in discussing principles of libertarianism vs social democracy in this thread.  There's a balance, there's never going to be consensus of where the scale should be set.  There is growing inequality and there's class war - as described by Warren Buffett and applicable here - even if less so than in the US:

 

"Actually, there’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won. We’re the ones that have gotten our tax rates reduced dramatically."


Glurp
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  Reply # 2093766 20-Sep-2018 12:27
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MikeAqua:

 

If you look at some of the social problems in Scotland you will see a country that has never really recovered from the atrocities of the 18th century.  You will see a number of similar social problems to his disproportionately experienced by Maori in NZ.  Not surprising as they have the same root cause - loss of land, suppression of 'rebellion' etc etc.  

 

I think the problem is pretty clear and it's not racism - racism is more a symptom of economic-inequity than a cause.  As someone else said a big factor is a lack of intergenerational wealth.

 

If you look at the British longitudinal study on life outcomes, which has been following a cohort of kids for 70+ years, the message is pretty clear.  The single biggest determinant of how you life will go (health, wealth, employment, addiction, crime) is how wealthy your parents are when you are born.  The gap between rich kids and poor kids cna be breidged by education only in about 30% of cases. I gleaned these conclusions from this TED talk: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwik9rDpm8jdAhXKad4KHdXrBX0QtwIwAHoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Ftalks%2Fhelen_pearson_lessons_from_the_longest_study_on_human_development%2Ffootnotes&usg=AOvVaw1b7pR9-xKGEN6GR9I0piKF

 

I suspect none of this will surprise anyone.  The depressing aspect is you need to improve the lives of poor parents, before they become parents if you are to make a dent in the prospects of their kids.  And if you understand epigenetics , even that may not be enough. 

 

The question is what to do?  The answer is elusive.  Govts worldwide have failed to address inequity.

 

As a simple NZ example of this consider the smoking rates of Maori women.  Govt has thrown resources at this and can't make a dent. 

 

 

This is a really interesting post and it is certainly one of the best I have seen on this subject. I do think racism is an important factor, but I also agree it may be more of a symptom than a cause. 

 

Has anyone anywhere had any real success in addressing this? I believe even the progressive Finns have issues arising from discrimination against their Sami population. As with the Maori, it is not so much direct discrimination as in you are not allowed to do this, but rather, discrimination based on a system of laws and practices that upholds the values of the majority culture while minimising or ignoring those of the minority. An example that seems to crop up everywhere is land ownership. The majority European concept is one of private individuals having exclusive rights over the parcels they 'own', while disregarding the indigenous idea of communal property, or even no property (in terms of rights) at all. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


477 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2093841 20-Sep-2018 14:09
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I can't see how the VC can stay on. Puzzled to hear NZUSA asking for context and time for the VC to clear the air, given it reads as if she wanted to use the threat of defunding a student club to stop them from inviting someone to speak on campus. 


BDFL - Memuneh
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  Reply # 2093850 20-Sep-2018 14:29
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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2093861 20-Sep-2018 14:48
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GV27:

 

I can't see how the VC can stay on. Puzzled to hear NZUSA asking for context and time for the VC to clear the air, given it reads as if she wanted to use the threat of defunding a student club to stop them from inviting someone to speak on campus. 

 

 

I posted about that a couple of pages back.  TL:DR version - if there's a resignation needed (not certain except in some people's minds), but the cause of the Brash ban was an interpretation of governance responsibilities - rather than the VC making a wrong decision on her own, then getting rid of the VC actually won't correct the issue.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2093863 20-Sep-2018 14:53
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Fred99:

 

GV27:

 

I can't see how the VC can stay on. Puzzled to hear NZUSA asking for context and time for the VC to clear the air, given it reads as if she wanted to use the threat of defunding a student club to stop them from inviting someone to speak on campus. 

 

 

I posted about that a couple of pages back.  TL:DR version - if there's a resignation needed (not certain except in some people's minds), but the cause of the Brash ban was an interpretation of governance responsibilities - rather than the VC making a wrong decision on her own, then getting rid of the VC actually won't correct the issue.

 

 

That's not the case if, as DPF suggests, she has mislead the Academic Committee. That's getting into misconduct territory, not a question of 'an interpretation of governance responsibilities'. I am more concerned with the implication she was prepared to use funding as leverage over a student club carrying a legal, lawful activity. 


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