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Topic # 240939 3-Oct-2018 13:08
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Let me start by saying I think teachers should be paid more than they currently are.

 

But ... the representatives of teachers' unions strike me as particularly inept, when it comes to PR. 

 

They repeatedly make statements about how awful it is being a teacher and then complain about deterioration in recruitment and retention.  While the two are obviously related, it seem two-faced for the unions to bag the sector they work in for decades and then observe that fewer people want to work in it - no sealed shirt Sherlock!

 

The other thing is how disingenuous the union reps are when saying their motive is to improve pay and condition to improve recruitment and retention. 

 

Give me a break.  Teacher want more money and their jobs to be easier.   Fair enough - that is a completely justified self interest   But why do they dress it up in glad-wrap as some sort of publicly minded objective. 





Mike

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  Reply # 2100847 3-Oct-2018 15:12
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MikeAqua:

 

Let me start by saying I think good teachers should be paid much more than they currently are.

 

 

FTFY ;-)

 

I don't believe that many people would argue that all teachers perform at the same level.  Most of them do a very good job.  Some an exceptional job.  And a few under-perform.

 

Notwithstanding the main point of your post, while Teachers (and Teacher's Unions) continue to resist the inclusion of performance-based measures in their remuneration, then they're effectively limited to being paid at a lowest common denominator rate - even if that rate gets begrudgingly increased by 19% or more occasionally.

 

If I ruled the world, the very best teachers would be arguing with the Ministry over whether they should be paid five or six hundred thousand dollars for the next year (as the very top echelons of many other industries do), rather than being lumped in with time-serving types who are phoning it in and doing the minimum that they can get away with.


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  Reply # 2100976 3-Oct-2018 18:50
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Good luck finding the metrics with which to measure teacher performance.  Using the standard checklist of KPIs is fraught with issues - in the end it's always going to be subjective.

 

I'm surprised that there's a shortage.  Some of my friend's kids in their 20s in Australia dearly wanted to be teachers, but at high school level they can't even get an interview unless they've got at least a masters and a B Ed.  So they've given up the teaching idea - and are doing something else.  NZ could probably recruit teachers in Aus.  I've never seen a correlation between qualification and performance as a teacher, so long as they meet the basics.  Attitude is everything.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2101017 3-Oct-2018 20:01
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I want teachers to get more.

 

But I also think they need to understand that literally every other job in the country is remunerated on performance. They're also not the only ones facing cost of living increases, but you'd think they were listening to some union hacks.

 

I get it, they want to raise the issues that affect their members; but they need to keep in mind that their pay increases will mean everyone else facing those same living costs gets taxed more to cover it. Not saying they don't deserve it, just try to be a bit more delicate about the message. 


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  Reply # 2101289 4-Oct-2018 09:20
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Fred99:

 

Good luck finding the metrics with which to measure teacher performance.  Using the standard checklist of KPIs is fraught with issues - in the end it's always going to be subjective.

 

 

It is said that "perfect" is the enemy of "good".

 

Almost all performance measurement is subjective is some way.  Some forms also are open to gaming the system.  That is why the best forms of performance measurement involve a moderation function, where ratings are supported by demonstrated examples of desired behaviours and feedback from peers, customers (students & parents in this case).  All ideally checked by an independent 3rd party (E.g. another school's board) and undergoing some form of "normalisation" on a national scale to help standardise scoring.

 

I know if I was a teacher, presented with the options of:

 

a) an imperfect performance-pay system that was like to be 70-80% accurate in gauging my performance

 

b) a collective agreement that capped my max income at $75k (or whatever it is at the moment)

 

...I'd be taking option a) in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

Fred99:

 

I've never seen a correlation between qualification and performance as a teacher, so long as they meet the basics.  Attitude is everything.

 

 

100% agree here.


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  Reply # 2101489 4-Oct-2018 13:04
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GV27:

 

I want teachers to get more.

 

But I also think they need to understand that literally every other job in the country is remunerated on performance.

 

 

Police, nurses, members of parliament, firemen/women don't.  Workers in fast food restaurants, supermarkets etc may be able to be rewarded on performance - but...

 

Why is it always teachers in the gunsights WRT award wages?

 

 


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  Reply # 2101517 4-Oct-2018 13:40
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Double Post.


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  Reply # 2101518 4-Oct-2018 13:40
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Fred99:

 

GV27:

 

I want teachers to get more.

 

But I also think they need to understand that literally every other job in the country is remunerated on performance.

 

 

Police, nurses, members of parliament, firemen/women don't.  Workers in fast food restaurants, supermarkets etc may be able to be rewarded on performance - but...

 

Why is it always teachers in the gunsights WRT award wages?

 

 

Police promote officers on merit.  from Recruit, Constable, Sergeant, etc. up to Commissioner - each rank receiving different levels of remuneration

 

Nurses possibly less regimented, but also hierarchical.  Nursing assistant, Registered Nurse, Charge Nurse, Director of Nursing etc.

 

Members of Parliament - back bench, Minister outside cabinet, Cabinet Minister, Party Leader, etc up to PM.  Again, achieved on merit (or political savvy ;-)

 

Firefighters...  Volunteers, professional, Station Officer, Fire Investigators, Chiefs, you get the picture

 

 

 

Teachers are probably most often targeted in this respect because they base their remuneration predominantly on tenure.  (with the exception of Principle & Deputy roles)


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  Reply # 2101570 4-Oct-2018 14:26
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Apparently 1 in 5 post primary teachers are over 60. That wasn't the case in my day. I recall only one or two near the 50 mark.

Ppta estimates a shortfall of several thousand teachers approaching which will probably and maybe hopefully be filled by immigration.

Imo there is much more we could do in the training area.

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  Reply # 2101764 4-Oct-2018 20:04
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gzt: Apparently 1 in 5 post primary teachers are over 60. That wasn't the case in my day. I recall only one or two near the 50 mark.

Ppta estimates a shortfall of several thousand teachers approaching which will probably and maybe hopefully be filled by immigration.

Imo there is much more we could do in the training area.

 

Not just for teachers.  IIRC, the average age for builders, GPs, plumbers, sparkies etc is also about 55.  You need to look back about 30 years to ask "why?".

 

I agree that training/planning sucks. That's not a problem with institutions providing training, but the direction from successive governments.  It's not going to work the way we're doing it. 




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  Reply # 2103313 8-Oct-2018 13:08
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Fred99:

 

Not just for teachers.  IIRC, the average age for builders, GPs, plumbers, sparkies etc is also about 55.  You need to look back about 30 years to ask "why?".

 

I agree that training/planning sucks. That's not a problem with institutions providing training, but the direction from successive governments.  It's not going to work the way we're doing it. 

 

 

The problem with the trades is lack of investment in training by the sector.  They have made their own bed there.  Now they whinge and moan to govt and demand to import workers - meanwhile we have about 80,000 young people not doing anything.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 2103395 8-Oct-2018 15:24
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MikeAqua:

 

The problem with the trades is lack of investment in training by the sector.  They have made their own bed there.  Now they whinge and moan to govt and demand to import workers - meanwhile we have about 80,000 young people not doing anything.

 

 

I agree that the industry have not made optimal decisions on investment in training, however you must also include the funding decisions made by the TEC over the past few years into the mix, which have not adequately adjusted funding to trades courses based upon future industry demand.


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  Reply # 2103573 8-Oct-2018 21:42
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wsnz:

 

MikeAqua:

 

The problem with the trades is lack of investment in training by the sector.  They have made their own bed there.  Now they whinge and moan to govt and demand to import workers - meanwhile we have about 80,000 young people not doing anything.

 

 

I agree that the industry have not made optimal decisions on investment in training, however you must also include the funding decisions made by the TEC over the past few years into the mix, which have not adequately adjusted funding to trades courses based upon future industry demand.

 

 

I think the funding is available, but the public tertiary institutes don't offer full trade training, for building related trades that's offered by ITOs.  I don't think the issues are because of TEC funding (but OTOH the funding model won't allow what's probably needed).

 

Privately owned/run ITO's milk the system, either with charging significant fees up front and/or skimming a % of trainee wages when they're out for job placement (in some cases the ITOs offer job placement).  Trainees in that case earn about $12/hour (after training fee deduction) before tax.  That's not enough to survive independently - so the alternative route is working as a trainee/apprentice directly, in which case you'll earn at least minimum wage - but there are still a few problems.  One is that the larger employers tend to do contract work, often those contracts are shorter duration that the training period before a trainee is registered.  If they don't secure ongoing work - you get laid off.  Because of the nature of that contract work, there's a tendency to employ contract staff rather than trainees - they're easier to get hold of - and easier to get rid of at short notice.  Next issue is that with the larger companies and larger contracts, the work can be repetitive.  The job has to get done, but if you're a trainee then you want to get varied experience - to get signed off as competent in the skills you'll need to become qualified.  Good luck with the concept of a "3 year" apprenticeship - that does not happen often these days.

 

It's a problem that didn't really exist decades ago - many trade apprentices were trained in the public sector.  You'd probably still as first year apprentice have to sweep floors.  But once on track, the public service organisation would look after you - if the department / business unit you were in couldn't give you work experience for something needed, they'd swap apprentices around to another department.  Block courses etc - not a problem.  If a block course now happens at a time when labour is in high demand by the contractor - good luck applying for the time off.

 

What we have now just isn't working in a competitive business model.  The evidence is in the numbers - huge projected shortages of trades staff. I see they're looking at making it compulsory for all contractors to employ a minimum 20% trainees on all government funded projects.  That will not solve the issues above.

 

The European (German anyway) model has technical institutes which are equipped to provide full practical training as well as theory.  Yes - it would cost - but it costs anyway - in the past because of a little more "fat" in public sector industry that we were all paying for - or as a cost to employers.

 

 




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  Reply # 2105388 10-Oct-2018 11:03
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We still have polytechs that teach trades and they are still govt funded.  We also have 'trade-academies' at some schools - again they benefit from public funding.

 

Things on the education front seem to have gone pear-shaped as polytech's have started competing nationally - for example Nelson, Marlborough Institutes of Technology now has a branch in Auckland. 

 

Polytech's are going more and more into the online space - potentially at the expense of hands-on courses.  A mis-guided recruiter sent me a position description for CEO role at a regional polytech.  A big focus of their strategy was virtual education.

 

ITOs from my professional perspective are a mess.  Individual sectors used to have fit for purpose (if under-utilised) ITOs that provided the qualifications those sectors needed. Then they aggregated ITOs into clusters, and culled qualifications down to generic units that are of little use to the smaller sectors in the super ITOs.





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  Reply # 2105676 10-Oct-2018 15:50
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They'll only teach trade skills to about level 4.  Past that, you're in the hands of the employer and ITO to get signed off on practical standards.  You need to enrol with the ITO, pay fees to them, and be employed as an apprentice to get your trade certificate/registration in restricted trades (building, electrical, plumbing etc). So yes - Polytechs teach trades, but not to trade certificate level (as I believe is the case in Germany).

 

The polytech sector is being reviewed.  Cabinet is sitting on the recommendations of the review panel now.  Yes - there is a move to online.  It doesn't suit some learners, and it doesn't suit some courses.  The future is probably with mixed delivery models. The competition between the institutions is a natural development from the funding process.  If you develop a course (expensive) then you get a return from students enrolled.  If you hand the course over to a competitor in a different region and they enrol the students - then you get nothing (unless you can negotiate a split) - so that's a reason why in your example NMIT may have a campus in Akl.  Worse than that (IMO) is that the same courses are being offered by out of region institutes, enticing students on price / low fees.  The quality suffers (that's known, by review, by completion rates etc).  There's also the problem that you can't run a course in a regional centre if you've only got 3 students - it'll cost much more than the funding received - so that'll mean less available funding at the major centres.  Yet "regional development" is a focus / government initiative (not just this "new" govt).


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  Reply # 2105873 10-Oct-2018 20:17
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MikeAqua:

 

We still have polytechs that teach trades and they are still govt funded.  We also have 'trade-academies' at some schools - again they benefit from public funding.

 

Things on the education front seem to have gone pear-shaped as polytech's have started competing nationally - for example Nelson, Marlborough Institutes of Technology now has a branch in Auckland. 

 

 

The duplication of course delivery has been clamped down on (albeit slowly) by the NZQA and TEC over the last decade. Investment plans that contain unit standards that are delivered by 'competing' tertiary institutions are often declined in terms of funding and/or accreditation, unless outcomes of other institutions delivering those units are poor. Some do however still make it through.

 

Institutions such as NMIT must show in their investment plans, that the courses that they intend to deliver at a regional level are specialised to that region. TEC regional funding buckets are capped, so for the most part opening a campus in another region it is a zero sum game.

 

MikeAqua:

 

Polytech's are going more and more into the online space - potentially at the expense of hands-on courses.  A mis-guided recruiter sent me a position description for CEO role at a regional polytech.  A big focus of their strategy was virtual education.

 

 

Some courses are easily deliverable via on-line means, but success lies in the quality of the course content and pedagogy. Many providers experimented with on-line delivery by created 'paper behind glass', essentially PDF'd copies of notes and other resources supplemented by discussion forums and supplementary learning material. This was a resounding failure. Slowly but surely the tertiary education sector has moved to a much more sophisticated e-learning pedagogy.

 

For those courses that cannot easily be delivered on-line, or that require hands-on components, a mixed delivery model (as Fred99 has stated in his post) is more appropriate.

 

Disc: I spent over decade in the tertiary sector as part of the SMT of a large tertiary institution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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