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8720 posts

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  # 2114506 26-Oct-2018 15:58
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MikeAqua:

 

Which brings me to your accusation of whataboutism.  I didn't mention the labour party's history of personality politics to justify what anyone in national does, or to distract.  My point was to try and demonstrate for you that all of NZ's extant political parties engage in attack politics.  If you can't see that ... you would appear lack objectivity.

 

 

Actually, I'd suggest that the present government shows a notable improvement in that kind of behaviour, yet in National, it's getting worse, with internal as well as external victims.

 

Clarke was a decade ago.  You need to let go...




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  # 2114537 26-Oct-2018 16:41
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Which brings me to your accusation of whataboutism.  I didn't mention the labour party's history of personality politics to justify what anyone in national does, or to distract.  My point was to try and demonstrate for you that all of NZ's extant political parties engage in attack politics.  If you can't see that ... you would appear lack objectivity.

 

 

Actually, I'd suggest that the present government shows a notable improvement in that kind of behaviour, yet in National, it's getting worse, with internal as well as external victims.

 

Clarke was a decade ago.  You need to let go...

 

 

I believe that Helen Clarke acts as advisor/mentor to the PM so probably has influence, I may well be wrong but I just have the impression that the PM engages her.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2114554 26-Oct-2018 17:04
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Perhaps Helen Clarke is giving her hockey lessons.  (Yes - I know I made the same mistake).

 

Who started this nonsense? Aha - it wasn't me.

 

Anyway, if Helen Clark is advising her, it's clearly not lessons in "how to be nasty". Ardern comes across as being a nice person.

 

 




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  # 2114563 26-Oct-2018 17:28
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Fred99:

 

Perhaps Helen Clarke is giving her hockey lessons.  (Yes - I know I made the same mistake).

 

Who started this nonsense? Aha - it wasn't me.

 

Anyway, if Helen Clark is advising her, it's clearly not lessons in "how to be nasty". Ardern comes across as being a nice person.

 

 

 

 

Hockey lessons ? I think the puck just flew over my head.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2114573 26-Oct-2018 17:54
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MikeB4:

 

Hockey lessons ? I think the puck just flew over my head.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Clarke_(field_hockey)

 

Balls - not pucks.




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  # 2114619 26-Oct-2018 18:44
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We could get some stick for that mistake




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 2114620 26-Oct-2018 18:50
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MikeB4: We could get some stick for that mistake

 

Bully to you!


 
 
 
 


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  # 2116030 29-Oct-2018 12:28
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Fred99:

 

Actually, I'd suggest that the present government shows a notable improvement in that kind of behaviour, yet in National, it's getting worse, with internal as well as external victims.

 

Clarke was a decade ago.  You need to let go...

 

 

Yes Clark was a decade ago, but the Labour party hadn't changed very much.  Goff, Shearer and Cunliffe engaged in the same behaviours.  All parties go there.

 

I do think Ardern genuinely would like to see less dirt in politics. 

 

If Ardern can make good on her wish to clean up politics, I wish her the best of luck.  I wonder if that's really what she thinks or it just plays well?

 

While she has a male opponent she has to resist a big juicy piece of low hanging fruit. In politics, women can go after men but men can't afford to respond in kind.

 

It will be hard to resist - Clark is an advisor to Ardern, Cullen is too.  They will be counselling all out attack.





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  # 2116152 29-Oct-2018 13:16
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MikeAqua:

 

In politics, women can go after men but men can't afford to respond in kind.

 

 

Really?

 

I'd suggest that women (in politics, management etc) who display so-called "alpha male aggressive" style dominant authoritarian behaviour are pilloried, and the standards applied to such style of so-called "leadership" is heavily biased against women.  Clark had to deal with a blogosphere which lit up with claims about her sexual preferences, her marriage etc. 

 

If women in politics are granted some level of immunity against "attack style politics" because it's seen by some to be unbecoming for a man to launch into a loud personal attack against them, then good bloody thing.  But of course instead we got comments and debate about Ardern's appearance, "stardust",  implied and direct questioning of her ability to function and be a mother at the same time, ad nauseum.

 

And that's how (some) men respond in kind.  Stop making excuses.


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  # 2116195 29-Oct-2018 13:30
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Fred99:

 

MikeAqua:

 

In politics, women can go after men but men can't afford to respond in kind.

 

 

Really?

 

I'd suggest that women (in politics, management etc) who display so-called "alpha male aggressive" style dominant authoritarian behaviour are pilloried, and the standards applied to such style of so-called "leadership" is heavily biased against women.  Clark had to deal with a blogosphere which lit up with claims about her sexual preferences, her marriage etc. 

 

If women in politics are granted some level of immunity against "attack style politics" because it's seen by some to be unbecoming for a man to launch into a loud personal attack against them, then good bloody thing.  But of course instead we got comments and debate about Ardern's appearance, "stardust",  implied and direct questioning of her ability to function and be a mother at the same time, ad nauseum.

 

And that's how (some) men respond in kind.  Stop making excuses.

 

 

Pay a visit to Kiwiblog. There it is considered acceptable (and presumably 'clever') to refer to Jacinda Ardern as 'Cindy'. If men with tiny dicks can't make fun of a woman's appearance because she happens to be attractive, they try instead to demean and minimise her by referring to her as a Barbie doll. It is pretty pathetic but I guess some men just can't cope with females who don't want to stay in the kitchen and have their bottoms patted.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2116211 29-Oct-2018 13:48
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Fred99:

 

If women in politics are granted some level of immunity against "attack style politics" ...

 

 

 

 

As an aside:

 

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind that there is a difference in the way men & women in politics are treated in this sense, compare and contrast the difference in treatment that Jami-Lee Ross received from his party for "behaviour unacceptable for a married member of parliament" and the treatment/protection that his co-adulterer received (who was engaged in the same behaviour and is allegedly also a married member of parliament).

 

Or perhaps, it's just the National party that has this disparity?   Labour certainly have gone to some lengths to protect their male transgressors over the years.  Gareth Hughes, Philip Field, etc.   (and the as-yet un-named Young Labour member from the Waihi camp)

 

Interesting to ponder the differences...


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  # 2116213 29-Oct-2018 13:56
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There's not much to ponder there IMO.

 

JLR was attacking the Party, they didn't know for sure what else was coming, and the Nats had no option but to throw everything at the messenger they had.

 

It worked too.  People are still talking about that, but not so much about the fact that JLR (regardless of his mental state at the time) and SB were openly talking about selling list seats to Chinese donors.  Would everybody be so "relaxed" about it if he was selling list seats to Russian donors?  If not - then why not?


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  # 2116221 29-Oct-2018 13:59
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Your argument is of the type 'they do it too so that makes it not so bad when we do it'. I utterly reject that kind of reasoning. Apart from that, I don't see how the treatment of Jami-Lee Ross can be in any way compared to the unnamed MP. I assume the MP didn't have a mental breakdown, or try to accuse Bridges of criminal activity, or try to undermine the National party. These are completely different things, and apart from that, the circumstances of the MP are largely unknown. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2116237 29-Oct-2018 14:22
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It's not about "they did it too" at all.   In fact, I was pointing out the opposite of that - Labour have tended to "protect" their male transgressors until it became impossible for them to continue to do so.

 

JLR's medical leave (now known to be due to a mental breakdown) came about because Bridges & Bennett brought these allegations of impropriety against him.   JLR's attack on the party and accusations of illegal/corrupt behaviour came after this.

 

I'm still puzzled by National's leadership going after only one side of an affair between two of its MPs and protecting the other.  (assuming it's true that the other woman is also a sitting MP)


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  # 2116263 29-Oct-2018 14:39
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Rikkitic:

 

Apart from that, I don't see how the treatment of Jami-Lee Ross can be in any way compared to the unnamed MP. I assume the MP didn't have a mental breakdown, or try to accuse Bridges of criminal activity, or try to undermine the National party.

 

No, but she did send an incredibly abusive txt to a mentally unwell man, ultimately concluding it with, "you deserve to die."

 

By all accounts, she very nearly got her wish.  But I guess that's OK because she didn't try to undermine the National party...


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